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Would you breed outside the APBT?

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by fearlessknight, Aug 18, 2007.

  1. Yes:.....why?

    4 vote(s)
  2. No:.......why?

    46 vote(s)
  1. chopperv

    chopperv Puppy

    It's a good thing not everyone shares your view, or BSL would be a reality everywhere (because, according to you, APBT are agressive and that cannot be changed).

    I believe that both genetics AND handling play a role.

    A dog that has been rescued from a poor environment can become a well mannered dog, with proper handling and training.
  2. Vanella

    Vanella Little Dog

    This is funny......FIRST OF ALL, BSL IS A REALITY......and you don't know me or the work I've been involved in to fight breed specific legislation in MY AREA so don't speak to me as if you do.

    SECOND OF ALL, I never said that aggression can't be managed. I MYSELF own a DA dog and through responsible management and training I've actually managed to control this behavior.....just because he hasn't killed a dog in 10 years do I think that he doesn't want to??? OF COURSE HE DOES.

    YOU said that and I quote "but the problem with pits that are agressive isnt from have a misstake of two breeds its from going to the wrong handler and how well they are trained" end quote....

    That came out of YOUR mouth. And I'm obviously VEHEMENTLY disagreeing with you.
  3. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    A dog that has been rescued from a poor environment can very well become a well mannered dog, but you will never be able to get rid of the DA. That's genetic and that plays a major role in this breed.
  4. Shon

    Shon Little Dog

    Dogs that "mate that arnt of the the same breed" should not be bred. Even if it happened due to irresponsibilities of owning that dog, "all the pups were verry well liked" and "had alot of people want more of them" doesn't mean that it is good for anything other than "business." You are supporting the overpopulation of over-bred mutts for the sake of money and\or an ego statement by saying so.
    Very good post, I'm in total agreement. :)
    "Valley bull" is NOT a "pure bred," it is the cross breeding of a couple to a few different "breeds" of dogs to suit the desired results of "customers."

    "Pit bulls" is not a "breed," by the way, and were definitely not "bred from other bully breads to make this wonderfull dog." I believe you are the one who should being doing "some research" there miss chopperv.

    For the "but the problem with pits that are agressive isnt from have a misstake of two breeds its from going to the wrong handler and how well they are trained..." The problem with "pits that are agressive" has almost nothing to do with handling or "how well they are trained" but instead that there are many, so-called, breeders breeding their "valley bull" and other mix-bred mutts with absolutely no other purpose than fame or fortune and no thought given to temperament.
    Mistakes and "accidents" are the result of human error, they shouldn't be considered something that "just happens." No, not all mix-bred dogs are negative, in fact many of them (as strays) are positive in the way society believes they should be, as a pet.

    Chopper is beautiful and may be friendly and affectionate, but even though you believe he "looks like a pure bred APBT (his dad)," how do you know that? Post a full 6 generation pedigree of "his dad" and maybe your comment would be a bit more valid. I'm betting that you can't produce that information and your simple perception of a "pure bred APBT" certainly does not prove that.
    What type of "aggression" are you referring to? How would you define a "handler?"

    There is a huge difference in dog aggression and human aggression. they absolutely do not equate each other.

    "Handling" a dog has nothing to do with how "aggressive" it is to anything. How it is raised, trained and expected to be, I would agree may have somewhat of a strong influence on that. A "handler" usually refers to a person showing or "handling" a dog while competing in some legal event or when referring to fighting a dog.

    I don't believe her statement "that genetics is the sole cause of aggression" is the same mentality that leads to breed specific legislation at all. Ignorance, which has been both displayed by you and your thoughts on certain "breeders" of dogs "alot of people want more of" is the direct result of breed specific legislation. There is nothing worse than breeding dogs simply because they have the reproductive parts to produce sell-able "products" with absolutely no consideration of standard, stability or anything other than what "looks" or "seems" to be what other people "want." I believe you are completely and sadly mistaken in your thoughts.
  5. Vanella

    Vanella Little Dog

    Excellent Post Shon. :lol:
  6. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    I usually do not say things like this, but you really need to get a grip...BSL is a reality and it is EVERYWHERE.....
    The APBT is a Dog/animal agressive dog, and you cannot train or teachit out of them..they are not human aggressive, unless poor breeding, without culling, and abuse has taken place.....

    This is what you get when you breed any dog to any dog....
    Unstable temperament, possibly human aggressive, little health knowledge (if any), shy/timid, untrustworthy animal......

    You think this is ok?
    I am simply asking....your opinion is surely yours and you have every right to it, I just want to know....

    I will say this though, if you think that the above listed problems do not and can not occur with this type of breeding you are wrong...
    I can say that withough degrading your opinion...because opinions are based solely when facts are not viable...in this such case, they are not...therefore you are not able to form an opinion, I mean I guess you can, but that would be insane!
    It would be like saying this color (RED) is blue or something....not an opinion...it would be a false statement....
    Now I am going to read the rest of this thread!
  7. chopperv

    chopperv Puppy

    you people are so closed minded and still contradicting yourselfs.... and im sending choppers dads information for all of you to look at his owner will be showing you soon ... i dont have the correct number off hand but its over a hundred generations under him so...i will keep you posted
  8. chopperv

    chopperv Puppy

    i never stated that genetics was the only play in aggression i said that it was both if you read what i said you would see that
  9. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Scuze me! :) should have at least put (or cat) in parentheses. I say it is relevant because my reason for voting "no" on this is rooted in the fact that I'm generally anti-breeding anyway; and for someone with this kind of leaning, the idea of cross breeding (APBT to another breed, or Labradoodles as another example) is a worse version of something I consider to be negative to begin with.

    Others voted "no" and gave their reasons why; I was just doing the same thing but could have explained myself better maybe.
  10. LadyRampage

    LadyRampage Puppy

    Thanks for replying Shon, I was set on it until I saw your post.. lol

    Valley Bull is EXACTLY what I expected it to be.... a crossed bred dog. Very sorry I didn't know what that breed was, since its such an old breed... lol Can you say Labradoodle? lol

    American Pitbull Terriers were being "created" as far back as the 1800s to become what they are today. They are not currently being crossed with another breed to "improve" it when it happens, only to "change" it, and I 100% feel that is WRONG. Like I said before, just because it was an accident does not make it right or worthy of breeding, of course my opinion.

    Animal aggression is a trait that is part of the APBT and no matter if that APBT has NEVER shown aggression the possiblity is there. If you don't like that fact, you should not own an APBT.

    But this thread isn't about aggression, just about cross breeding, which as I stated before I am 110% AGAINST, and I don't care how great a cross bred APBT is, or looks, I still don't like it. Taking away any of the traits of my APBT (including the DA) would deminish that certain something they have that I love.

    Please make no mistake I am VERY well informed about all aspects of the APBT, its my breed of choice...;)
  11. Vanella

    Vanella Little Dog

    I agree with that statement 100%....good post!
  12. Pit4life

    Pit4life Banned

    I don't breed and if I did the parents would be of the same breed [purebred], health tested, and mentally tested.

    And if you do not like the APBT's history then get into another breed, takeing out the DA could possibly also take out the prey drive. Wich is strong in the APBT and gives it a lot of his "Omph"
  13. chinasmom

    chinasmom Little Dog

    My two cents worth...Would not be breeding outside the breed. It has enough problems now that are majorly caused from ppl "trying out sh!t

    Old Time Pit Gallery
    THE PITBULL TERRIER, poor fellow, is now almost obsolete, and what a shame! Will no one endeavor bring him back to his rightful own? Not to his former, much abused--pitifully abused--state, which was actually the cause of his downfall, but to the position of a true dog among dogs. Never was there a more noble, well -meaning, loyal, or courageous dog on the face of the earth. While perhaps some of the inferior types of this class were nothing much to look upon, yet those of the better specimens were really splendid-appearing animals and worthy of a place in any home or show ring. This terrier did not lose his reputation, and with it his popularity, because of any fault of his own. ​
    Those who handled him, those who made him fight to maim and even kill other dogs, always at the grave risk of his own life, ultimately caused his decent down the grade rapidly toward oblivion. Left to himself, he was no more of a fighter than many of our other dogs which are held in the highest respect, and under the right supervision he was one of the most peaceful creatures living. Of course, it must be admitted that he could not really boast of blue blood, nor could he exactly claim a true-to-type strain, but, nevertheless, if other breeds could be carefully developed and raised to a standard recognized by the American Kennel Club, why could he not have enjoyed this honor? Surely, he well deserved it. So let us sincerely hope that some sympathetic person, or group of persons, may sooner or later take up his cause and carry it through until he has a fitting place in canine history.
    John Lynn Leonard, DVM 1928

  14. maryellen

    maryellen Good Dog

    excellent post Panda!! i agree with you..
  15. luvmypits

    luvmypits Puppy

    I would not cross breed or breed the APBT at all. DON'T BREED OR BUY WHILE SHELTER PETS DIE"
  16. panda

    panda Little Dog

    I couldn't agree more. Again, one reason why there are so many "Pit Bulls" in shelters, on craigslist, free to a good home, abandoned at vet offices and the list goes on..........
  17. Shon

    Shon Little Dog

    Not to bring this subject back up again, as it already has been... but I would still be extremely interested in seeing even 5 generations of this dog, much less 100. I can trace all of my dogs back to most of their 30 generations, and even parts up to 50-60 generations, but there is really no documentation before that. If the "breeder" (actually "breeders") of your dog's sire bred each dog at 18 months old, 100 generations would date back more than 150 years. I've not been presented with such information and can not believe such ludicrous statements without that information.
  18. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    lol..I was wondering when someone was going to ask again....I think a few of us are waiting....
  19. Vanella

    Vanella Little Dog

    tap, tap, tap........waiting........:yawn2:
  20. Alan

    Alan Banned

    To go with your thoughts, I think you could take a total sound genetic dog and alter it to be agressive as a result of it's environment and handling.

    On the other hand, I dont think you could do much to alter a geneticaly agressive dog. You may subdue it in the background a little but the potential for something bad is still very likely to happen.

    I think agression can come from both sources which is why responsible breeding is a must. The original Pit Bull was not agressive geneticaly but I dare say that as a result of cross breeding and irresponsible breeding that some geneticaly agressive dogs which are called by the name of Pit Bull are agressive and do exist today.

    I wouldnt breed the APBT with another breed. I would find it acceptable under a a couple conditions .

    1. There wasnt an over population issue.
    2. You are doing it for your own use and not to create another breed to sell. You know exactly what you are doing by making the breeding and the created dog will have some purpose that could not be obtained with the same results from any breed in existence. As an example, you are a big farmer. You are loosing thousands of dollars from your crops being destroyed by giant jackrabbits. Your beagles are afraid of them because they get their ass kicked by these terrible bunnies with teeth. You have an aquaintence who has much knowledge in breeding and genetics and he breeds a APBT/Beagle cross which hunts down the terrible jackrabbits and chases them off of your property.

    I know thats far fetched but you get the idea lol.

    Let me add a question to this original question. IF through genetic DNA research, scientist said they could alter Pit Bulls to never bite a human and to never be able to pass along that trait; but they would loose some gameness as a result, would you support them?

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