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Why Did We Change The Bull Terrier?

Discussion in 'Bull Terrier' started by Hucklebutt, Oct 18, 2009.

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  1. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    I do not know of a need for a bull terrier to be game unless you have plans for it that are not legal. All the gameness a bull terrier would need for me would be to not give up on stoping a hog, or to protect me to the end. The breed in itself may not be athletic, but there are a few individuals thare are, and can pass it down. Bull terriers are also not very popular, they can be very rare in places sometimes, and arent seen nearly as much as the pit bull, so less numbers means less people being able to show there athletic ability. there are probably more people with show bull terriers t han people owning them for pet or working dogs, thats not going to help our numbers. also a bull terrier can price anywhere from 500-2500 a pop, which makes it harder to come by.
     
  2. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    After having a good talk with my friend, we came to the scary conclusion that it seems show fanciers are constantly having an uprise with males too big too breed, spinning/fly biting dogs/ rage syndrom dogs and bitches who cannot tolerate labor. It seems that they have these problems popping up all over the place when I started noticing how many new stories there were on the bull terrier yahoo forums. Why don't I or any of my friends with bull terriers have these problems? And why do these show fanciers seem to have a scary ambundance of them...?:no2::no2:
     
  3. Schwe

    Schwe Good Dog


    I think you are misconstruing what gameness means. Gameness does not mean dog-fighting or dog-aggression. Gameness means the dog is tenacious, has strong work ethic, doesn't quit, driven to finish what he has started. Dog-fighting was just the venue used to test a dog's gameness. A dog that was "dead Game" meant he would die before giving up.

    If you want the Bull Terrier to be a functional, working dog then breeding for gameness wouldn't be a bad thing. A functionally sound dog that has no heart still won't work.
     
  4. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    it appears that some others have a different impression of the term game. cause i was thinking gameness ment dead game.
     
  5. AmberABCg

    AmberABCg Puppy

    <<<we came to the scary conclusion that it seems show fanciers are constantly having an uprise with males too big too breed, spinning/fly biting dogs/ rage syndrom dogs and bitches who cannot tolerate labor. It seems that they have these problems popping up all over the place when I started noticing how many new stories there were on the bull terrier yahoo forums. Why don't I or any of my friends with bull terriers have these problems? And why do these show fanciers seem to have a scary ambundance of them...?>>>

    I will re-post from my comments from another thread. This struck a chord with me, as I read your comments on another bt neurological forum on which you stated that while you hadn't owned with a spinner, you had retrained several. The three spinners and two severe OCD dogs that I have had in my house over the past 14 years, came through rescue and were from breeders who did not health test nor show their dogs. (I don't care if you show or not, but health test to better the bull terrier breed!) To have FIVE truly ill dogs who displayed this behavior due to genetics and not thyroid or learned behavior, etc is shameful. Since there is extensive scientific research being done by doctors, veterinarians, and certified behaviorists in conjunction with bull terrier owners and breeders, I am curious if the research that you have done has been learned through Dr Alice Moon-Fanelli at Tufts University or just by reading online forums from which you were banned?


    Secondly, the numbers of bull terriers that appear in various rescue programs around the country disprove that most bull terriers come from show backgrounds and/or responsible breeders. Ask any bull terrier rescue about the costs incurred from the genetic health problems or (when known) how many owners of the dam or sire of the litter won't take a dog back once it has left their care, or follow up on the pup throughout the life of the dog. I have been showing for 6 of my 14 years in the breed, and many people who show their pets don't breed. And the ones who do breed often health test to better the breed and quality of life for the dog and it's new family, not improve their profit on a litter of pups.



    I appreciate this forum (among others) for the differing opinions. While we may not now or ever agree, we can open our minds to other points of view which I believe can only make our breed stronger. What makes a forum informative and human beings intelligent, is the ability for those who ask questions or voice opinions to HEAR and LISTEN to what the other side says.
     
  6. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog


    if this is the case,what exactly justifies the often ridiculous price tags put on these pups ?

    i have raised many litters myself so i know all too well the basic finances it costs to raise a litter

    for arguments sake lets keep it simple,if 1 individual pup costs 100 dollars to raise to 7/8 weeks.........where is the justification in a 800 dollar price tag ?......if its not to improve profits on a litter of pups,i mean surely if these " breeders " genuinely had the breeds best interests at heart they would simply seek out the best possible homes for their pups and only require back the monies paid out to maintain their " hobby ".....in other words,the 100 dollars per pup ?

    100 dollar expenses = 800 dollars return :eek:.......per pup.....x 6 litter.......600 dollar expenses = 4800 dollars return

    very few buisenesses operate on such high profit as dog breeding.....and when the animals being bred are poorer and poorer physical specimens as with bull terriers,it just makes it all the more hard to stomach !
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2009
  7. AmberABCg

    AmberABCg Puppy


    I will answer your question to the best of my ability. I realize that everything fact[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ored in[/FONT] is my choice[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]


    Before breeding my bitch, she had a BAER test performed to ensure bilateral hearing $100
    Echocardiogram by a board certified cardiologist to verify absence of heart murmor $180
    Urine-Protein-Creatnine test performed to rule out existing kidney disease and possibly determine future risk $75
    Progesterone tests to ensure breeding dates $80
    Ultrasound to confirm pregnancy $115
    X-ray to determine the number of pups $110

    BAER test to determine that pups have bilateral hearing $100 per pup
    Shots and vet care for a healthy litter of four until 10-12 weeks $160 per pup
    AKC Litter Registration $25 + $2 per pup
    AKC Registration $20 per pup
    Microchip $25 per pup
    Microchip registration $15 per pup
    Tattoo $75 per pup
    Tattoo registration $20 per pup

    Fee for health tested stud dog who might compliment/improve upon my bitch's virtues $
    (I own the stud dog of the above litter, and therefore paid for him, his echocardiogram, UPC, and BAER tests,)

    Income brought in on three pups sold $3600, before income tax. (I kept one pup)
    Total above fees based on a litter of 4 pups $2353. I did not factor in the stud fee, food/care for pups through 10-12 wks of age, time off from work, nor the two coffee pots I broke while I stayed up with the pups and dam.

    I chose to register, microchip, and tattoo the pups myself to help them get back home if lost or stolen.
    Lastly, we will never eradicate all health problems, but I feel better knowing that I did everything I could to help ensure a happy, healthy life for my pups and their new owners. To me, getting a pet is more of an emotional investment than financial.
     
  8. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    apart from the fact that at least half of that expense is totally needless.....vet care for 12 weeks @160 per pup :D....why are the pups being kept till 12 weeks ? and the first 3 weeks the pups need nothing whatsoever....apart from their dam.....
    worming,food and warmth are plenty enough to raise a pup to 8 weeks and it certainly doesnt cost 160 dollars.....
    anyway forget all that.


    to be honest this was the type of reply i was expecting....and if im honest,hoping for :D......because it leads to the BASIC OBVIOUS fundamental question of......

    with ALL these expensive health tests which are bordering on obssession......WHY in gods name do you show people consistently breed such poor quality animals ???????
    surely health tests are there to protect pups and ensure a better chance of healthy animals.......so why oh why is the bull terrier breed on the whole in such a poor state and why spend all that money on health tests only to PURPOSELY breed such low quality physical specimens to other such low quality physical specimens ??

    if sound and sensible breeding practises were carried out in the first place these health tests wouldnt even be needed....i mean is it any coincidence that when the breed was in good shape years ago health tests were unheard of....yet in todays times of disgusting distorted exxagerated dogs there are more health tests than ever !!!

    i would guarentee i could breed far superior sound active and healthy dogs over 5 generations with no health testing whatsoever( and no profit making ).....than these show breeders could breed in the same time period with all their fancy health testing( and profits).....

    you see its the human mind behind the dog that needs the testing....not the dogs themselves!
     
  9. castle

    castle Puppy

    Well why aren't you doing it FFS ,no sense slabbering over a keyboard about what you can do do it
    Step up to the mark and start scratching lets go show everybody just how good a breeder you can become :lol:
     
  10. AmberABCg

    AmberABCg Puppy

    Actually Mr Clue, I am a bull terrier PET person. I had bull terriers for almost 8yrs before I ever stepped into a show ring. Most of the dogs who have been in my home were rescued from a shelter, the streets, or from an owner who couldn't (or wouldn't) care for them anymore. Yes, I do show my current dogs, but they are pets, and terriers, first.
    I won't argue about what someone produces of any breed, as long as they produce healthy, well-tempered animals, keep their animals healthy, and are willing to take back any animal of their breeding regardless of whether it is spayed/neutered/intact/healthy if the owners can no longer care for it or if it ends up in rescue.

    The majority of bull terrier fanciers that I've met could care less about pedigrees and 'show' quality, they just love their dogs.

    Admittedly, I am a fan of today's AKC bull terrier standard, and agree that some confuse fat and shapeless for 'bone and substance'. As stated earlier, I appreciate different points of view, that is how we grow and evolve.
     
  11. AmberABCg

    AmberABCg Puppy

    I am not sure how to edit after the fact, and realized that I didn't address Mr Clue's question about why I kept the pups until 10-12 weeks of age.
    My preference was to keep pups until this stage in their physical & physiological development (at 12 wks they are just beginning to develop their own immune systems apart from the antibodies passed from their mother) as well as for their social development and interaction with other dogs, environments, and their pack.

    (I agree with Dr. Ian Dunbar's Developmental Stages & Socialization of pups to help produce a well adjusted, confident puppy.)
     
  12. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    i would guarentee i could breed far superior sound active and healthy dogs over 5 generations with no health testing whatsoever( and no profit making ).....than these show breeders could breed in the same time period with all their fancy health testing( and profits).....

    Just out of curiosity how many years would it take for "you" to breed those 5 generations? 6,7,8 yrs?

    you see its the human mind behind the dog that needs the testing....

    Now you have a very good point that we can almost all agree on. Ready for the ink blots?

    The dogs still need health testing for genetic health issues. And I guess that is what sets the responsible breeders apart from others.
     
  13. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog


    you are missing the point young man/lady :no2:.......what i am saying is it doesnt take a rocket scientist to breed sound healthy animals.....and it certainly doesnt need thousands of dollars spent in doing it...it just requires a little common sense.....which i have a little bit of as do most others....apart from people in the show dog world.

    personally i dont have the time to dedicate to this breed but i will always stand up for it in the hope the next generations will breed correctly.

    ---------- Post added at 05:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 AM ----------


    what you fail to admit.....is that these " genetic health issues " would not have been brought into this breed in the first place if it were not for show breeders breeding very low quality physical specimens of the breed......so some would say " you make your bed you lie in it ".........this of course is linked to the statement about its " the human mind that needs testing not the dogs "....after all....what sane normal decent person would breed poor quality unhealthy dogs in the first place !!!!.....you kind of answer your own question.

    before these dogs were bred as fashion statements to be " different " there were no health issues and so no health testing.....now today with more health testing than ever before,we have far more unhealthy dogs than ever before.......you go figure it ????
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2009
  14. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    mr. Clueless,

    You are side stepping the issue. You were asked to show some proof of your breeding successes. Let us all see how successful you have been. And post a few health results while your at it.
    Why do we health test more... because it is available to use as a tool.
    Standing up( as you are doing) for the breed will accomplish nothing but allow you another media to pose in.

    " genetic health issues " would not have been brought into this breed in the first place if it were not for show breeders breeding very low quality physical specimens of the breed......

    Now how about showing us your successful line?
     
  15. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog


    the breed of dog i have been around and vastly improved ( within the bloodline itself ) is a breed of dog that would be of no interest to you whatsoever as they are active athletic dogs.....i have posted a few pics on various other threads but unlike you i am not looking for recognition or a little rossette to make me feel good so you dont really need to know anything about it as its irrelevant to this thread.. i certainly dont need to justify breeding extremely athletic healthy vigorous dogs.....i dont need to score points i can see good and bad in all things and even i can admire in a strange way folk like you who are dedicated to the breed of choice....even if in my opinion your efforts and energy is sending the breed in the total wrong direction !

    as for side stepping an issue....i side step NOTHING and dodge no subject good or bad .....can you say the same ?

    i am still waiting to hear how a dog who has a physical abnormaility that is clearly visible.....can WIN a dog show ?....IF dog shows are not totally corrupt ????
    come on....dont sidestep an issue ;)

    ---------- Post added at 06:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 AM ----------

    incidentally bullful......you say that technology is the reason for more health tests today.....that would suggest that this breed has always had these health issues but only in todays modern times of hi technology can these issues be tested for and eliminated........

    so yesterdays dogs were overweight unhealthy dogs too were they ?.
    and why does health testing seem to create MORE unhealthy dogs within the breed rather than eliminate them as it is supposed to ?....there are definately more overweight unhealthy dogs seen within the breed today than there was yesterday

    there you go 2 simple questions....no sidestepping ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2009
  16. castle

    castle Puppy

    Just had a blimp through your posts and I dont see anywhere you have posted pixtures off your own dogs ,just some Reid adverts and a tentative claim to being involved with Big Red .
    Also see you say are associated with Ingles not a person I would let near or know were I keep my dogs :mad:
     
  17. jonnybegood

    jonnybegood Little Dog

    back to the topic ..it takes alot of time for a breed to evolve into what the breed founders envisioned for the future....its a work in progress we all have our right to breed to what each individuals interpretation of the standard is.
     
  18. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    castle....there is life beyond the internet !....i have posted pictures of dogs that have been through my hands in one way or another.....or do i have to post a picture of every dog ive ever owned,just for you because of your importance.
    as for mr ingles....he posts pictures of his dogs on the internet,other people who do not post pictures of dogs bred from his lines....do not....

    im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you use your brains to figure those 2 points out.

    you assume an awful lot maybe you should pm me if you have any more questions theres a good lad
     
  19. jonnybegood

    jonnybegood Little Dog

    where on earth do you get you information from?..my dog has mated all of his bitches naturally..other larger kennels I personally know only mate natural too..AI may be used to avoid infection a swab can confirm that anyway..or for sending chilled semen to be used elsewhere, or for freezing for future use.



    most of my girls all whelped thier litters just fine..on the rare occasion you may have a pup get stuck in the birth canal and you will need a cesar but bull terriers are not like bull dogs...again I ask where do you get your information from, is it from your own dogs and experiences?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2010
  20. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog



    in all fairness....ive never heard that the bull terrier breed suffers difficulty in whelping/mating either......the british bulldog and other dogs of physical extremes such as great danes/chihuahas/cavalier king charles etc yes....but im not aware that bull terriers suffer in the same ways.....

    no doubt they will eventually get there if people dont start paying attention to what they are doing.....but i dont think they are there yet.
     
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