When to call it quits

Alright, so I have been talking to a friend of my sisters recently about her dog whom she adopted as a pup of around 4 months old, has some sort of bully in her but other then that-who knows.
The dog is just under 5 years old now, was spayed last year went through basic training class and gets plenty of exercise and over-all is well taken care of.

This dog Maggie, recently had an incident of breaking her collar to attack a woman walking past, from what I was told the woman was walking in the opposite direction no eye contact, no running,etc. when Maggie reached this woman she belly crawled to her, hackles raised and began lunging to bite her feet (stalking) when the woman stood still she would look up at her face and growl.

according to the owner this is the 3rd time something like this has happened, the second time was with a child Maggie knew well and liked, just randomly one day she noticed the child walking past the house within 10 feet of Maggie and Maggie went crazy trying to go after her- next day the little girl walked past again and Maggie paid her no mind.

the last incident was when Maggie was younger then a year old while in the park on a long line a man walked too close by and Maggie ran at him to, again go for his feet when he tried to step around her she sat up and stared him in the face and growled.


To me, I can't really see any distinct triggers as Maggie otherwise loves people, and will happily approach kids, toddlers, adult men women, and people in costumes as her owner has done a good job of trying to socialize her from the sounds of it.


But, my sister asked me to talk to her and meet Maggie and I seen no nervousness or anxiety or anything that would have me think she was going to hurt anyone or even be mistaken for it! When I approached her she politely sat and let me pet her and showed no signs of discomfort or unease. we walked down around other people and around her own yard/house and nothing, she ignored people walking past, she happily met a little boy who asked to pet her.

I personally told her my feelings on euthinizing, but she is not sure this has warranted euthinizing so soon and I just don't have much more of an opinion to give other then have her checked out by a vet thoroughly and contact a behaviorist (which she has already been to see but one, but Maggie never reacted around them so they told her it was a "fluke" and not to worry)


SOO, now here is my question
When would you say "enough is enough" ?
Would you say this situation would warrant a death sentence if it were your own dog?
Why or why not?

Maggies owner is hella worried because her sister has 5 young children between the ages of 10 years and 6 months old and they visit often, even coming into the house when she is not home.

 

That's a tough one. The unpredictability makes me nervous. I think if after an extensive vet check, (full thyroid panel, etc) everything came back normal; I would seriously consider having the dog PTS.

The fact that there are kids around her so much really scares me.

 

No animal life is worth a human life.

 

Why is this dog even being ALLOWED to meet new people after three "attacks"? I use quotations because it doesn't sound like she's actually injured anyone, but she is working herself up to it. I personally would euthanize as the dog seems wacky and unstable. However if they choose not to, this dog should be muzzled in public and locked up if visitors come over.

 

Has the dog actually bitten anyone? Or just stalking feet? I've seen dogs go after feet before, it's as if they see them as prey. I agree the dog needs a full vet exam, and put away when the kids come over.

 

My comments in red above; and the last sentence highlighted is the most significant detail to me.

When to say enough is enough I think is a very personal question which is different for everyone based on personal tolerance and comfort levels - but also very much on circumstances.

For me personally - I wouldn't even consider putting the dog down. I have a lifestyle that would make managing her behavior easy. All adults, no children - not even any teenagers ever, no one ever in my home without my being there which isn't often and the dog could easily be separated and crated, no close neighbors and I never leave my dog outside unsupervised, if I had to I could curtail my public activity with a dog - so basically I could take a dog that wants to eat everyone other than my family - and efficiently isolate them from the rest of the world without significantly altering my lifestyle.

Most people don't have lifestyles that are conducive to that so that's where the whole personal circumstances (as well as comfort and tolerance level) come in. So while I wouldn't bat an eye if it were my dog....if I were your friend's sister I would be very concerned. I would say she either needs to euthanize or make a very serious commitment to alter the environment in such a way that the dog is not left alone unsupervised with children or anyone for that matter, her children would need extensive education in dog safety - and honestly she'd have to objectively assess the personalities of the children involved. Quiet, respectful children that you say don't grab the dog's tail and they would never even think of it - OK; rambunctious children or children too young to listen and you aren't always there standing between the child and the dog - you could have a problem. What I'm suggesting sounds unrealistic - and that's part of what your sister's friend would have to assess as well - to what extent can she realistically and does she want to alter her lifestyle or does she just want to keep on as is and hope nothing bad ever really happens - because maybe it won't. maybe this is the extent of Maggie's behavior. It's a gamble. I'd be willing to gamble because all I'm risking is a personal bite for my own stupidity. What's is your friend's sister gambling?

 

Personally I would use euthanisia as a last resort.
There seems to be a trigger that you haven't been able to identify.
Most important, you have to confine her so she doesn't hurt anyone, then try to get an animal behaviorist & a vet to asses her as soon as possible.

 

Since there is an unknown trigger. As u mentioned the dog is ok with people then all of a sudden the dogs snaps. Who's to say the owner doesnt trigger the dog. Just don't wanna see anybody get hurt.

 

So far it seems that no one has been seriously injured (no broken skin) but Maggies owner was never sure as the people generally got out of there and never reported the incident or got upset about it (lucky for her)
I told her to pick up a basket muzzle and to keep the kids AWAY from Maggie, she said Maggie is kept in a back bedroom in a crate when the kids stop by after school and normally just watch tv but she said there have been a few occassions she came home to find they had let Maggie out and I told her to put a lock on the bedroom door the kids can't reach.

The collar that was broken was a nylon/chain martingale, apparently the "O" ring broke, no clue the quality.

As for leash reactivity, it is a good possibility but the instance with the little girl she was behind a chain link fence.

 

If this were my dog, there wouldn't have been a second incident. The dog is clearly wired wrong, and unpredictable. As far as I'm concerned, there are very few legitimate reasons for an APBT/BBM to show aggression toward a human. One example of an "exception" I can think of off the top of my head is when someone had an APBT who had gotten chemical burn all over its body from something in their yard, somehow got into their kid's bed, the kid ran into the room and flopped down onto the bed, directly on the dog that the kid didn't know was there, and got bitten. Not a continued attack, "just" bitten.

That's really right about the level of tolerance and bite inhibition that I expect from this breed (and, by extension, dogs that are commonly mistaken for the breed, thanks to ridiculous breed ID issues baked into BSL and the shitty breeders who perpetuate other breed ID clusterfucks) before it'll turn into a gray area for me.

If there are children in the picture here, that dog should have been euthanized after the first incident, and I'm sorry (no I'm not) but regarding "she ignored people walking past, she happily met a little boy who asked to pet her" why in the ever-living hell would anyone use a child -- any child, but especially someone else's child -- to temperament test a dog like this? I would think that you of all people would know better.

 

Just throwing this out there....I understand BSL issues...but regardless off breed or breed mixes....I have come to find that sometimes a dog just does not like a particular person(s) for reasons we sometimes dont know why. A smell maybe? A vibe they get that we do not? I dont believe that it makes the dog itself unstable but I do agree that precautions should be in place for possible unpredictable behavior if an owner is up for the challenge. I have had 2 dogs that have acted similar in the past. For me just saying their name and a shhh would stop the behavior. I am not saying that would work in this scenario. I think another behavior evaluation would help where they could witness the actual situation.

 

It can be difficult to stop an owner and a child from approaching each other while they talk above you short of tackling them to the ground, Trust me I warned her multiple times it would be best to NOT allow people to touch Maggie because I wanted to see what her reactions were to people moving away from her since people moving away from her happened in 2 of the 3 incidents and I was suspecting frustration /leash reactivity due to people moving away, not stopping to pet her (possibly why she would look them in the face and growl when they stopped moving as a way of almost "demanding" they pet her)

But your right, hindsight is 20/20 I should have been the one walking the dog and been more forceful about not allowing people to approach, but she was so relaxed. Lesson learned and thankfully without anyone getting hurt.

My opinion to her owner was and still is to euthinize I told her I wouldn't deal with a dog like that just due to the stress of it and told her Maggie should never be allowed out in the general public without a basket muzzle and her nieces and nephews should no longer be allowed in her house unsupervised without locking Maggie in her crate AND behind a locked door the kids cannot unlock. and a heavy duty collar on at all times as her owner is still on the fence and is doing her best to believe the behaviorist she seen who said it was a "fluke"

I told her she would be wise to do as much research on dog aggression as possible and invited her to the forum.

 

I wouldn't and couldn't deal with a dog like that. And does her owner really WANT to deal with 8 years of keeping a dog under lock and key?

While there are people suited to this, do you truly believe she's one of them? If one incident wasn't enough for her to step back, smack herself in the face, and radically change her approach with this dog, I kind of doubt she'd be able to maintain a complete overhaul in the long term.

 

I would have said nothing much to worry about if no one can get access to her without the presence of the lady, but the fact that kids enter freely and at anytime to the house would let me suggest enough is enough by now, better be safe than sorry