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What is your opinion on 'culling'?

SideKick

Little Dog
lol...theory is all i got to go on. :D That's why I like debates like these. Helps with the learning. From what I've seen on pedigrees good dogs can come from anywhere. Some come from tight bred dogs. Some battlecross, some scatterbred.

Purely out of curiosty...
For your breeders, which do you think is better. Tight linebreeding with careful outcrossing? Or loose linebreeding with careful outcrossing?
 

ganja

Good Dog
well... it depends on the breeder and what time and money we wants and can invest into his dogs...

I'm not into the game, but let's just pretend for a second (going off of what I've understand about the breed and the sport so far)

would I breed to a curr? that would probably depend on how he's bred and if I had time and money to give it a try.
there were more than enough dogs that were never even fought themselves that could produce some worthy dogs.

however, I'm not quite sure that I wouldn't breed to a known man biter... for me, it mostly depends on why he's biting or who he's biting...
a dog that's truely HA, no way. I have no patience nor space and resources for such dogs, but a dog that's biting out of excitement or whatever, sure, no problem.
also, keep in mind, those dogs would not likely end up in the wrong hands with irresponsible or first time apbt owners.. these dogs would not be pets for the most part...
 

EDOGZ818

Big Dog
Again , Kristi ,
as you say theory , in reality , hard to tell.

Consistency is what most breeders look for.
( I would think )
Trial & error & learning from others mistakes.

---------- Post added at 12:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------

Ganja makes a good point.
Time / Resources.
Each dog represents a 10yr? investment.

I'd be reluctant to invest 10yrs if there is a high chance of it not working.
 

mr.clueless

Good Dog
the thing is there is no set pattern to breeding for such elusive traits as gameness.....i believe a sound basic knowledge of genetic inheritance and some honesty go,s a long way.....for me " the match " is the thing that can misguide you and so many folk have lost touch with reality due to the win/loss column rather than the fundamental basics to what these dogs actually are......dogs dont know how many wins and losses they have,the match itself is mostly down to conditioning and handling ability....then raising,feeding,schooling all play massive parts in what result you get from a dog.......many dogs are forced to quit that otherwise wouldnt,these are flesh and blood animals and if not given the time to rest heal and recover may well quit when with good care they wouldnt ......so all these things have to be taken into account when making judgement....

i dont believe there is any value to breeding a game scatterbred dog it is simply playing the genetic lottery and certainly not a dog to base a yard on unless you can keep and raise every pup,have many years ahead of you and are willing to test and cull to the extreme......but then you shouldnt breed curs either so i cant even answer my own question :lol:....but thats what makes it an interesting question that ive asked many of those " good old boys " both home and abroad over the years and never had the same answer and reasons twice !

great to hear folks views anyhow,thanks

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

however, I'm not quite sure that I wouldn't breed to a known man biter... for me, it mostly depends on why he's biting or who he's biting...
a dog that's truely HA, no way. I have no patience nor space and resources for such dogs, but a dog that's biting out of excitement or whatever, sure, no problem.
also, keep in mind, those dogs would not likely end up in the wrong hands with irresponsible or first time apbt owners.. these dogs would not be pets for the most part...


thats one im not sure on....back many years ago we based our whole yard on a known man biter.....now im not talking about a playful nip,the dog made a mess of his owner witnessed by several of us who im ashamed to say just froze to the spot for a second and i dont mind admitting the dog scared the hell out of me both before and after......we was all quite new to the dogs back then and due to the dog being a great representative of the breed in every other way we went ahead and bred him,even inbred on him later on...... the dog ended up a rom so whether we made the right choice morally,maybe not.....but in every other way it was the right choice as without these breedings the game in this country would have been a lesser place.
 

EDOGZ818

Big Dog
Never say Never!

Scatter Bred as foundation?
Difficult at best.
Not impossible, but in some ways , scatter breds can be valuable.
Especially when having to much inbred foundaition stock.

It can then be used to back breed , line breed , etc.
Many ways to skin that cat & just as many to screw it up.

Scatter Bred on what is the question?
Great dogs, all distantly related to your tight stuff , just different generations?
All dogs in scatter bred have the desired traits & have passed them on?

10yrs or more worth of questions to consider.

Hard to get specific answer with generic IE:
Even harder to argue against results.

---------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 PM ----------

Mr. Clueless:
Good call.
I know exactly where your coming from!
Been there & done that with great results ( Not ROM , but I was satisfied. )
 

mr.clueless

Good Dog
Never say Never!

Scatter Bred as foundation?
Difficult at best.
Not impossible, but in some ways , scatter breds can be valuable.
Especially when having to much inbred foundaition stock.

It can then be used to back breed , line breed , etc.
Many ways to skin that cat & just as many to screw it up.

Scatter Bred on what is the question?
Great dogs, all distantly related to your tight stuff , just different generations?
All dogs in scatter bred have the desired traits & have passed them on?

now this im going to have to plain disagree with....not saying im right and your wrong,just my conclusions over the years.....

in my opinion you should never use a scatterbred dog to introduce hybrid vigour to tight family dogs,which is what i think you are suggesting......if you have a tight bred line needing an outcross you can simply cross to another unrelated tight bred line if need be.......as long as their is not shared genetic make up close up it will be sufficient to create the vigour needed to avoid staleness within a family strain......by using a scatterbred dog to create vigour you are simply throwing things up in the air and hoping they land the way you want.

put in a simple to understand way.....the less available genes to reproduce the less variables can come out.......


in other words ( for simplicity ) if your tight bred family dog has 10 genes lets say....and your unrelated tight bred dog has 10 genes ....that only leaves a possible variance of 20 genes meaning some will definately repeat on each other and produce that trait in the offspring.......

however if your tight family dog with 10 genes is bred to a scatterbred dog with 100 genes.....thats 110 different ways those genes can fall and the chances of those repeating on each other are much slimmer.....

im only making an easy to understand example......in reality we are talking in the millions and a whole bunch of technical jargon thrown in with it.....but thats the basic way genetic inheritance works.....

anyway im off as im starting to get on my own nerves :lol:
 

mr.clueless

Good Dog
Good point about the genes.
Still, might not be the best thing in theory , but sometimes it works.


its not just theory it is a proven breeding method used in many different areas of animal breeding.....for instance with cow farming it is essential to produce hybrid vigour as it brings about size and strength within stock .....more size = more meat = more money.

genetics is such a complicated field its just a shame their has never been documented lab testing for gameness :D....hence all we can do is learn what we can and make educated guesses.

---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------

I refuse to feed a dog that bites it's owner...

thats how he got bit !! :D.....he quickly learned to throw the foodbowl down and not place it down......
i shouldnt laugh it was one of the worst things ive seen since being around these dogs......only for the quality of the dog in every other way id agree with what you say.
 

buddysmom

Good Dog
I am glad to see now, and should NOT have assumed that EVERY "GD enthusiast" would indiscriminately breed a dog known to have serious genetic health problems.

On a related note I remember at least one member here in the past spewing the line (paraphrasing) "if it doesn't work it doesn't eat" but then learning evidence to the contrary about some serious creampuff spoilage of same said "un-working" dogs :)
 

ganja

Good Dog
I don't care for dogs that are biting the hand that's feeding them!

however, I don't care neither if the dog has aggression issues as long as he stays in good hands...
 

mr.clueless

Good Dog
I don't care for dogs that are biting the hand that's feeding them!

however, I don't care neither if the dog has aggression issues as long as he stays in good hands...

any average dog of the breed thats willing to bite should be buried.....

but an exceptional dog of the breed......is an exception ;)
 

rob32

Puppy
any breeder that would cull based on physical conformation must have one hell of a yard !!....the hardest traits to breed for are the easiest traits to lose and no breeder past or present has the most elusive traits so stamped into their breeding program that they can afford to look past it and prioritize a level bite......

as for boxing....well i think we are in agreement then :confused:

i dont know of any breeders in my area that do breed for gameness anymore but when i was younger i did know of one. the only dogman i knew with a game program would immediately cull pups with an over or underbite....amongst other things. then when they got older his pups were then game tested. he didnt care about the physical conformation since he didnt show his dogs but, any "flaw" that could affect his fighting ability would pretty much be a death sentence. when the guy was alive he was known to have some amazing dogs so, what he was doing, even though i never did agree with it, worked.
 

mr.clueless

Good Dog
i dont know of any breeders in my area that do breed for gameness anymore but when i was younger i did know of one. the only dogman i knew with a game program would immediately cull pups with an over or underbite....amongst other things. then when they got older his pups were then game tested. he didnt care about the physical conformation since he didnt show his dogs but, any "flaw" that could affect his fighting ability would pretty much be a death sentence. when the guy was alive he was known to have some amazing dogs so, what he was doing, even though i never did agree with it, worked.


but is their any evidence to suggest an under or overshot bite is a " flaw " that could effect fighting ability ?......ive heard about undershot dogs that could certainly close their mouth....and ive heard about dogs with level bite that couldnt break a crisp packet......

hence my original point......." a dog bites hard because he wants to ".