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What is your opinion on 'culling'?

EDOGZ818

Big Dog
@ Mr. Cluesless:
We know that , but for illustration purposes.

In this day & age " CUR " isn't considered a major / disqualifying flaw.
 

SideKick

Little Dog
there have been many good ones that did just that

I'm glad to hear it, whoever did that to me were good responsible breeders. I'm no breeder, so most of what I know and understand is from reading and debates like these. But most seem to go to the extreme when it comes to a game dog. saying they don't care what's wrong with the dog if its game they would breed to it.

Game dog that's a health mess, vs cur that's perfect structure , health , genetics , etc.
Many will take the gamedog.

I understand choosing said dog but would you breed it? I'm not saying breed the cur just because he has all the right stuff health wise either.
 

XXX

Good Dog
Well... for the old timers then.... mr. Clueless... Bill.. whomever else....

Was there ever a dog that you can think of that you would not have bred to because of one reason or another but that same dog was as game as they come??

If so why would you not have bred that dog?


But most seem to go to the extreme when it comes to a game dog. saying they don't care what's wrong with the dog if its game they would breed to it.
 

EDOGZ818

Big Dog
I can't say any particular thing that would prevent me from breeding to a game dog , except his production record.
 

mr.clueless

Good Dog
Well... for the old timers then.... mr. Clueless... Bill.. whomever else....

Was there ever a dog that you can think of that you would not have bred to because of one reason or another but that same dog was as game as they come??

If so why would you not have bred that dog?

in a word..........nope :D.....although i must add......

on occasion i had the chance to breed to solid proven game dogs but did not for no other reason than i didnt consider them particularly well bred dogs......theres a whole difference in breeding to a game dog and breeding to a game dog bred from gameness.....
but of course thats only if you have a choice.......if not a crooked jaw,sway back or bow legs would never have stopped me breeding to a game dog......
 

SideKick

Little Dog
I'm not talking about something like crooked jaw, legs or anything else like that.

Example..this is all fictional.
3x winner Scruffy, proven himself game in his last match. Comes down from aline that has epilepsy in it and it is a known fact that most of the offspring wind up coming down with it. Scruffy himself is starting to show signs of having it.

Would you breed to him knowing your taking the chance of having this introduced into your dogs?
 

ganja

Good Dog
of course not all will breed genetic flaws... however, I have come to find that genetic diseases in game bred dogs are quite rare...

keep in mind that these dogs didn't need perfect conformation, however, they needed to be HEALTHY dogs.
for ex. there is NO room for a dog that's crippled from HD in the [] IMO
nor is there for a dog that has attaxia..

there could be carriers, of course, but WAY less than in the showring

you get where I'm going at?

some flaws have just never shown them selfs half as often in gamedogs as in dogs bred for looks...
if these dogs have such bad genetic problems, I would assume they wouldn't have just bred him, seeing as it would interfere with their fighting abilities.

at least, I wouldn't, and he could be game as hell...


---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 AM ----------

blind dogs and bow legged dogs (to an extent of course!) are not what I call un healthy dogs nor are those life threatening problems for a dog
 

SideKick

Little Dog
I agree gangja, they don't need perfect conformation. That example was on the extreme side but what I was trying to get across was that if these dogs are truly a passion to a person they would put more thought into the health of these dogs when they choose to do a breeding.
 

EDOGZ818

Big Dog
If scruffy was game 3x, etc., with epilepsy?
Tough call.
Do I have access to better?
Do I have to choose between scruffy & a healthy cur?
Do I even have to make a / the breeding?
Has scruffy's offspring been proven game & producers of game dogs?
How are those offspring's pups? The pup's pups?
Is scruffy's litter-mates affected?
Did scruffy's parents have it?
Did scruffy's parents produce other epileptics when not bred to each other?
Did a repeat breeding of scruffy's parents produce the same?
Bottom line : is scruffy throwing game epileptics %100? Are the offspring doing the same?
What caused the epilepsy? ( IE: Inbreeding )
What will fix it? ( IE: Out cross to scatter bred )

Those are a few of the questions I would ask , along with the regular breeding questions & think about the answers / results.

I actually had an epileptic , cold dog in my program. He was never used , but he was there. " WELL BRED " on paper.
He was maybe 10th ( or more , he was last option ) in line.

He was also the only example of what I didn't like from the line.
( Besides the sire , who was bred to a super tight relative , or something to make the epileptic pup. )

For illustration purposes, let's just say he was the best bred dog you could get. ( " ON PAPER " ....paper definition different from real life definition of "WELL BRED". )

If I had no other males , but the local 6ft , 54-0 ( counting cats , squirrels & bike tires ) , yeah , I'd have bred him ( Cold epileptic , well bred on paper )to:
PKNY-3.jpg


A scatter bred , rough dog , high strung. Would have checked the pups out & started over with them. Then again , with Fat Bill here , as well as so many others , like NC Prison Guard , etc., that I would trust to invest years in with a dog from their yard , I wouldn't have to go that route.

But I would , if I had to , & go it with every intention of producing dogs that could compete with the aforementioned people in every aspect.

Hence the importance of never being stingy with your dogs , when it comes to the right people , as well as making every breeding a foundation breeding. Even battle crosses should fit into a larger picture , for the sake of longevity...provided of course , it's a good breeding , worthy of such precautions , but if it isn't...why make it?

It's a lot easier to start over , when you have been generous with the right stuff , & then need a favor to get it back. It happens.
Being a jerk when on top , makes it hard to get back up when you fall. Treating others as you would like to be treated , when your on top , may leave some one there to catch you when you fall & turn it into a stumble.

>>>$00.02
 
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SideKick

Little Dog
I like your post edogz. A true breeder will go through those questions and more before making the decision rather then just jumping on the chance. And like I posted earlier if they did decide it was worth a shot they would keep all dogs for the next couple generations and do some major hard culling and very careful breeding. And if things don't go the way they thought it would they will do the right thing and put down the whole line.
 

mr.clueless

Good Dog
I agree gangja, they don't need perfect conformation. That example was on the extreme side but what I was trying to get across was that if these dogs are truly a passion to a person they would put more thought into the health of these dogs when they choose to do a breeding.


you see this is where a big often overlooked word comes into play......SELECTIVE......a breeder must be selective......this ch scruffy dog you describe,ok no you wouldnt breed the dog in an ideal world.....but would you breed his ch litter brother who did not suffer from epilepsy ?.....if so why....the dog is carrying the same genetic structure that produced the fault and has just as much likeliness to pass it on,just because a fault does not show itself does not mean it is not being carried..........
and this is where gameness comes into it as well......2 litter brothers one of which is a deep game champion the other of which is a 3 minute cur both have exactly the same capability of producing game dogs.....but which one would you choose to breed....common sense and SELECTIVITY tell you to place the odds in your favour of producing better animals by selecting better individuals of a litter to use as breeding stock......do this over generations and you start to see the benefit that you maybe wouldnt see in a 1 off breeding due to the way genes can fall......and this is where inbreeding becomes a useful tool if the breeder can be highly selective

its like flicking a coin 10 times,it should come up heads 5 times and tails 5 times right ? but it rarely does most likely it will be 8/2.....7/3.....6/4 etc......but you carry on flicking and it will even itself out to 50/50 over time.
thats why i could never give a gamedog breeder an excuse for breeding curs.......

heres a question back at you nc....or anyone else with an interest....

what dog has the better breeding potential......
the well bred cur.....or the scatterbred game dog ?
 
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EDOGZ818

Big Dog
"WELL BRED CUR" has better breeding potential , but still a crapshoot.
I'd op out & breed a game tight bred with the game scatter bred.

Chances are , I would breed the well bred cur & game scatter bred to the same female / male & see which produced better.

I can't say one way or the other with limited info.
I know the game scatterbred might produce to average , so I'd ask plenty of questions.
I've seen both sides work & fail.
 

Lee D

Good Dog
what dog has the better breeding potential......
the well bred cur.....or the scatterbred game dog ?
tough one...i can see someone using the scatterbred dog in his program if he/she is that great of a match dog, but it would involve several generations of line/in breeding/culling to tighten up and start to achieve some consistency. would it work? who knows? that seems like a big challenge.

as for the well bred cur, the "cur" label is kinda funny to me cuz there are so many variables (conditioning, stress from the long trip, the man behind the dog, etc.) involved for that dog to achieve that label. would i breed him to see if he could produce? if i had time/space/finances, sure i would.

good question MrC...im looking forward to others answers. im no breeding expert by any means
 

EDOGZ818

Big Dog
Yes , even human aggression , but it's all relevant.
Now if breeding purely for () , I can see where HA , would be a no no.

Many a Game dog / ROM has been alleged to be HA & HA doesn't always = transfer to pups. Some is social HA.

It isn't a 1 or 2 question format.
Repeat breeding of a ROM litter & parent is HA? I'd grab a pup...especially if the previous litter produced CH & ROM dogs.
 

SideKick

Little Dog
the cur would have the better potential when it comes to breeding cause they have the genes. So you have a better chance of getting high quality dogs from him then a scatterbred. Right?
 

Lee D

Good Dog
Even human aggression?
of course not, but ive seen, ( not "seen" so dont freak foolks..foolks, i like that one:D) some off BHs yard that were so fucked up in the front end i cant possibly see how they could be worth a shit. i dont know the man, and have talked on the phone a few times, but wouldnt touch his stuff with a ten foot pole.
 

EDOGZ818

Big Dog
the cur would have the better potential when it comes to breeding cause they have the genes. So you have a better chance of getting high quality dogs from him then a scatterbred. Right?

In theory yes, in practice? The proof is in the pudding