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What is Cruelty?

Discussion in 'Today's APBT' started by XXX, Jul 11, 2009.

  1. Lowlife

    Lowlife Big Dog

    We aren't going to agree on anything tonight. lol I understand your opinion whether I agree with it or not. I once shared your opinion.
     
  2. tonina

    tonina Puppy

    nah i undastand what hes trying to say, n in some way i side with prisonguard also
     
  3. ShakaZ

    ShakaZ Good Dog

    I didn't read this whole thread yet, and I realize it's an old one, but I have a few questions...
    What if your dog was attacked by any animal? Would you want your dog to be able to take care of itself until you could help? And after the attack would you want a dog that is tough enough to survive the attack?
    Also, what if there was no betting involved, if it was just me and one other person, both dogs were mine and I did it for mating purposes? For example:
    I want to mate a certain two males to a certain two females, I only do one breeding a year so only two dogs will get the chance, so I face off my two males and the winner of that encounter will mate to the winner of the encounter of the two females and that would be my breeding for the year. No betting, no gambling, no big spectator thing. Just me and one other person to separate the dogs when the winner has been determined. The show people decide who gets bred to who by looks and titles. So I would determine who gets bred to who the same way as it's done in the wild (even though these are not wild animals, it seems as if a lot of people like comparing the two so there you have it) Would that be acceptable to both camps? And why would that be illegal being that both are my property and not endangering anybody or anything?
     
  4. Nekonikoff

    Nekonikoff Little Dog

    Heres the biggest differnce, men who choose to get in the cage and fight, do exactly as such. They choose to be there. Dogs have it a little differently, they are CHOSEN to be there.
     
  5. Jim

    Jim Good Dog

    But they choose to stay and if they didn't want to be there in the first place they would never be taken there.
     
  6. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    ShakaZ... thats almost exactly how I'd like to see it done. I prefer the good hard game test over a professional betting involved match.. lets see what the dogs are made of it they look good after a few bumps... game test them.... if they show game then you can look at breeding them. Small... quiet... safe.. the way it should be.


     
  7. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Doesn't exactly sound like a proper test, whichever of two dogs "wins." From what I have gleaned on this forum and elsewhere, anyway.

    Shouldn't it be more than one match, and more than a choice between 2 dogs? Two, I have heard it said many times that winning a fight doesn't necessarily equal gameness.

    Not that I will ever endorse it however it is done, but even I know that it's more complex than that.

    In you scenario I don't think you would have gained any meaningful knowledge about which of your 2 males and 2 females (if any of them) are game and/or worthy to breed.
     
  8. ShakaZ

    ShakaZ Good Dog

    Okay, a win is not always a win... and a lose is not always a lose... by win i mean the dog that doesn't quit versus the dog that does.... and if neither one quits then a win is a win.. you get me now? its not always about the winner and yes for that time or that day at least the winner is the one to breed... aren't we doing it the way the wolves do?

    ---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

    It takes the betting element out and it takes all of the spectators out. If one dog no longer wants to compete then the contest is over, the breeding is done, the breed is preserved and its not about the "greed" of the owner. Brutal? Yes, but war is brutal for men and women who have no choice when the military says they have to serve for four or more years.with NO choice of where they are stationed... at least with the dogs if one wants to end it then that's the end of it (if ya'll want to compare human to animal combat) and there is no life lost. I'm trying to find a compromise... are ya'll willing to meet in the middle or do ya'll want it all your way?
     
  9. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Yeah I am better with it if you are taking the betting element out, and the dogs get proper care etc ... I am with you there.

    And really, I understand what you are trying to say overall.

    But the scenario where you have two males and two females, how does matching them make either male or either female worthy of a responsible breeding? Doesn't the concept of game testing require more than picking the better of two dogs and two bitches? that's not a lot of stock to choose from.
     
  10. DeeDirtyDawg

    DeeDirtyDawg Good Dog

    I think the example. Of two males and two females was for sake of argument, just for an example.
    I don't have a problem with game testing, per se, but I think it should only go so far. If one dog is cold , or if he goes cold, he should be pulled. No need to make a dog suffer if he doesn't want to fight. That would be cruelty, or to let it go so far that one or both dogs suffer really serious injury.
    What good is a game dog if he loses his pecker in the box anyway? (Lol... that's just a bit of comic relie f in a rather heavy conversation)
     
  11. ShakaZ

    ShakaZ Good Dog

    Yeah it was just an example which is why I said FOR EXAMPLE:

    ---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

    Okay, buddysMOM (i'm assuming you have either a son or a daughter named buddy lol j/k) how about I choose from ALL the males and ALL the females from MY OWN YARD and whichever one "wins" out of ALL of them (although by then that ONE would be too tired and done in to breed... but whatever i'm trying to please YOU and all of YOUR requirements to make this a good SCENERIO [I know I spelled that ONE word wrong so it makes me uneducated but anyway..]) gets to breed? Does THAT satisfy you.... geez you can't win with some people.
     
  12. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    LOL, little did I know 3 years ago when I signed up for this forum how much grief I would get for my lack of creativity in choosing a handle with [dog's name][MOM]. But no worries you aren't the first to take issue with it and you won't be the last.

    That sounds closer to what I have heard is the way it was "done right" in "the old days," although there were also other dogmen and their yards in the mix which I think would give you a better genetic pool and better way of finding that "true gameness," I think a lot more people would be OK with it if this is how it were done, minus as you say the gambling aspect.

    Doesn't your shouulder get awfully sore with that big chip on it?
     
  13. ShakaZ

    ShakaZ Good Dog

    LOL. na there's no chip... im just trying to compromise and it seems that nobody wants to... I would say bring in other dogmen and other dogs from their yards but I thought THAT was the issue that people had a problem with... but maybe the only issue is the gambling... i must agree that the gambling aspect does tend to make SOME lose site of the big picture which would be the dogs themselves and preserving said dogs. Also the only time I would go to an outside yard is when I need an outcross to keep the blood from getting too tight. But other than that it would be my dogs my yard my line... When you bring outside forces and influences that's where you bring in problems.
     
  14. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Yeah, that all makes sense.

    I should let you know, I am personally opposed to any kind of dogfighting/matching and would never be completely OK with any of it, I do not buy the contention that those in the old days "did it right" either ... but I do understand the greater purpose behind it all and the difference between the M.Vick type of crap and matching/rolling (done in a more humane way) for the purpose of choosing breeding stock. My opinion is just that, personal but I do not look down on those who hold different opinions.

    And no, to answer your next question I don't own an APBT but my best friend has a great old galoomp of a pit bull, and someday if my circumstances warrant it, I may adopt an older one.
     
  15. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    very interesting little debate here.....just to add my 2 pence worth.....an old timer once told me " the test of the dog is the gametest and the test of the man is the match "
    so this would go along with whats been said here as regards matching being needless in finding the better dog......however my take on it is that many dogs need condition on them to give their best,and as soon as you condition dogs you are throwing too many other variables into the mix....

    as for both dogs being your property so not breaking laws by letting them fight......by NOT breaking them up you are commiting an offence,simple.;)
     
  16. ShakaZ

    ShakaZ Good Dog

    Now, that THAT debate is over.... (and thanks NCPG for backing me up on this one) anybody know the exact why its considered cruelty to animals to ALLOW (not make) them fight? are we required to also try to break up a dogfight (or any animal fight) that we might run across. because i for one am NOT going to attempt to break up an animal fight between two strange animals.
     

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