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What Exactly is an APBT

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by tat2stuff, Nov 18, 2007.

  1. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    OK there are many different opinions and theories of what the APBT is made of. The problem is we need to rely on so many different sources if conflicting information from books, newspaper articles, artwork, word of mouth and the fact that no one kept written records of what they were doing back then(prior to the dogs coming to America).

    So lets hear your theories on what the history of the APBT is and why you support that theory.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2007
  2. maryellen

    maryellen Good Dog

    considering the breed was NOT bred to fight in the beginning is the crucial point here.. they were bred for bull baiting, etc... then when that was outlawed man decided to match the dogs against each other... if people are going to say the breed was bred for dog fighting please dont forget initially they were NOT bred for that....
     
  3. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    Gotta disagree with you here Maryellen.. Its my understanding that the dog that was bred for bull baiting was then taken and crossed out once the dog matching started.. thus creating a new breed of pit dogs that was SOLELY intend for combating other dogs. And then when they came over with the immigrants then the name was given American (Pit) Bull Terrier... I might be wrong, but I don't think I am here.


     
  4. XXX

    XXX Good Dog


    For the first question here my answer would be people engage in this activity in this day and age to stay true to the nature of the beast. The ones that are doing it right, doing it the way the old timers did it.. then its done in an honorable way.

    Its my opinion if you can not respect what these dogs came from, what they were meant to be.. and understand that some people still want to keep the animals true to their nature and not ruin them by breeding them to perform in other areas... (thats why we have the big blue dogs now.) then you shouldn't have this breed.. get a lab.
     
  5. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Hey Hey now on the big blue dogs. LOL

    But if you do not want a dog with a the "gameness" that Certain ppl are trying to keep true to the breed then you do not want an APBT. Get a AmStaff. AmStaffs have been bred for looks, and have tried to get the DA out.

    I agree you can not own an "Pit Bull" and not accept this breeds history and where they come form. As far as respecting the dogmen of old. Well you would not have this breed today if it was not for them "staying true" to the breed. And yes that included matching them. And IMO back then we did not have this overpopulation and man biters out in the publics hands.

    Yes Bull Baiting was also a part of history but it was not the APBT that was used. You will find many theories like the one below from the UKC.

    http://www.ukcpitbull.com/encyclopedia/tiki-index.php?page=History+of+the+APBT

    Now as far as hunting and dog fighting. I would say hunting. But that would depend on if the matching (dogs) was true to the rules that governed it for years before the AWA of 1976.
     
  6. maryellen

    maryellen Good Dog

    but the bottom line is man created a dog for bullbaiting. when that was outlawed man then created the apbt for dog fighting, but it all started out for bull baiting, that was the inital set up by the dogs, but not the apbt, yes, they were then created after bull baiting was banned.. it boils down to man created the breed for his own enjoyment after bull baiting was abolished..
     
  7. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Man created alot of things for theier own enjoyment. Alot of cruel things. Against man and beast.

    Matching game dogs some may have been for enjoyment, gambling, and some were to better the breeding program. And some of those matches were not for just blood lust. But that will not fit into our little painted picture. So ppl refuse to believe it.

    Wether you like it or not. You have to accept that it is part of this breed's history. We would not have this breed if not for those dogmen.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2007
  8. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    But when it comes down to it. Every breed was created for a purpose. By man. Selective breeding for a specific task. We turned them into pets. Some say we are cruel to not let a working dog do its task.

    And when you hunt the animals have no choice in the matter. They just are targets. Now some say if you do not hunt then they will starve to death. But what about those game ranches.

    But when matching dogs most of the dogs want to go at it. You do not have to force them. That is more HSUS BS that they spoon feed to the masses.
     
  9. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    The majority of blood that our dogs are down from today are from the old style Bull and Terrier dogs that were breed and used for fighting for centuries in the Black Country of Northern England by the coal miners and iron workers. This was going on during the heyday of bull and bear baiting but these dogs were bred exclusively for fighting. The descendants of these dogs later evolved into the Staffordshire Terriers. Another early "pit" fighting dog was the Blue Paul dog from Scotland.

    James Hinks experimented with the Black Country's Bull and Terriers and eventually produced the Bull-Terrier. Around 1860 these dogs split into two types, the English Bull Terrier that became the show dog and the pit bull terrier(old style Bull and Terrier) This is the dog that went on to be the favorite for the dog and rat pits of London and later the APBT. These dogs fought differently than the Bull-Dogs as the Bull-Dogs latched on and hung while these dogs latched on and shook and ripped their opponent.

    By about the 1840's the the pure Bull-Dogs were no longer used for fighting as they were considered too clumsy and slow and were no longer classified by breeders as sporting dogs but rather fancy dogs.

    The Bull and Terriers were selectively breed for one purpose only and that was fighting, but they did use them for bull baiting too.
     
  10. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Tat the link I got from the UKC is a different history than what you say. In Strattons books he also says that there are different versions on how this breed evolved. Everyone has their own opinion. You have one historian saying one thng another contradicting him. But what we do know is when this breed was brought over here (States) and what developed into the APBT. And what it was used for here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2007
  11. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    Cynthia,

    I think the apparent discrepencies are the history of the original bulldog (which some believe the APBT is one in the same) and the history of the bull and terrier breeds. You are exactly right in the American use, but the bull and terrier was always used for dog on dog fighting from its creation. It was also used for ratting (the terrier side), bull baiting and running (from the bulldog side) etc. etc. Anyway you slice it...back to the bull and terrier breeds, bulldog, alant, molloser, etc. etc. these dogs have always been bred to do terribly violent work.

    I think another source for an apparent discrepency is that when people look at history they errently look its eras as disticnt. By that I mean if I say that the bulldog was used in progression for bull running, then bull baiting, then testing against other animals including monkeys, bear, lions, and badgers, ratting, and finally dog on dog combat...these things did not happen linear or successively. Dogs were being used for fighting at the same time as the other purposes with some overlap.

    I hope got that point across clearly...this is a great discussion!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2007
  12. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I never indicated which one I believe is true. I just stated that there are different versions of how this breed evolved. And even the Bull and terrier. Depending on who you talk to. I need to go find my This is the APBT book. And since I am editing and only have 5 minutes I will have to create another poat. LOL
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2007
  13. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    I got ya...I wasn't arguing that point with you just highlighting my opinion on that history not being linear. For example, we can talk about the Cold War era, but it didn't start or end in one specific year. History books categorize things that way, but in reality things continue, start earlier, etc. I know it looked starange because I typed your name, but that was more in reference to the subject, and not your post/opinion in particular. This response came before we seperated the threads, and I was just trying to be clear on that point.
     
  14. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    OK I got it, In R Strattons This is the APBT he republished 2 different origins of the ABPT and his own. That appeared in Bloodline Journal

    Each one different. Then Stratton goes to say that "The truth in the matter is that no one has published any original research on the American Pitbull Terrier. Rather, most writers seemed to consider our breed a twin to the Bull Terrier, and simply borrowed the history of that breed and placed ours where they thought it would fit in that scheme of things."

    ANd that was my point. Up ontil they came here it seems that no one is really in complete agreement.
     
  15. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    ...to cosign on that here is a picture of a bull terrier before that breeds head was ruined by show breeders...

    [​IMG]

    In substance the bull terrier and the American pitbull terrier had slightly different conformation standards, but in function did the same job. Couple that with the many different names the APBT has been called over the decades...yankee terrier, half and half, sporting bull terrier, pitbull, bull dog, etc. etc. and the plot thickens.
     
  16. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    You are right about the head thing.

    The Vet I work for owns a Bull terrier. ANd I swear everytime I see her I always think of The movie Beetlejuice when he stretched his head out. LOL
     
  17. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    Ever see these pics?
    Bull Terrier Skull from the
    1930's...[​IMG]

    1950's...[​IMG]

    1980's...[​IMG]

    For any else who hasn't read the article here's the link...
    http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm
     
  18. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    No I haven't. I will have to show my Vet that. LOL wow what a difference. Just goes to show you how show breeders can change (ruin) a breed.
     
  19. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    you got that right
     
  20. Alan

    Alan Banned

    I havent seen anything I disagree with here. There are several theories of exactly what dogs made up the APBT. Some say there was an orignial bulldog way back in time that was more similar to the American Bulldog. Im pretty certain I know exactly where that breed came from; but thats another story for another time which I dont know if I could put on this forum any way.

    As far as Pit Bulls though, I think the breed has been altered a lot more than what most of us want to believe. Im not just refering to as of late with the "low riders" and blue dogs. Im refering to the game bred dogs as well.

    As stated, I knew some dog fighters when I first got into the breed. One of them had full blooded dogs. He had handwritten pedigrees but he didnt register the ones he bred. He said it was because he was concerned about being tracked through the registries and because he didnt want other people to know how his dogs were bred. He said that a lot of dogmen were particular about that because someone else could come along and make a slight modification and beat you and cost you money.

    For example, if someone created some dogs that were very deep game but didnt bite real hard, someone else could try to recreate that and add in some hard biteing bloodlines.

    Anyway, he said the game was so intense that people often tried their own little experiments. He said it wasnt that uncommon for people to add redbone coon hounds for tenacity and then register the dogs. He said some people would add some mastiff blood to increase the size. They normally lost gameness but if the dog could finish it's opponent off before gameness became a factor than they won the fight.

    The point to all of this is that I believe there are so many bends and twist in the road that it would be impossible to find the exact path back home.

    Forgive me, just a little off subject but as something you may find interesting, I asked him once (this was back in the 70's he is passed now) what american breed of dog would be the most game after the APBT. His answer surprised me. He said Austrialian Sheppherds and Dalmations were known to have a lot of gameness.
     

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