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Using Color Type Selection

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by sportingdog, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. sportingdog

    sportingdog Banned

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]Using Color Type Selection... [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]By James Bond[/FONT]​
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]Many times colour type selection has been overlooked in breeding game dogs, [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]especially in the USA where I went to visit big yards of dogs from 35 up to 250 dogs at a[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow] time. It surprised me that only one or two men did this and they are legends in the [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]breeding of game dogs, these men are Floyd Boudreaux and Jerry Clemments. Over the[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow] years we have done the same and with great success, to say the least. If you have [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]lack of space or have a small genetic pool, then you can actually tighten up your [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]blood/family by selecting on type and colour. It is never a guarantee as game dogs [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]come in all colours and shapes, but for instance lets say you where breeding the [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]alligator line, and you only access to say 4 to 10 dogs, then I suggest you use this [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]technique to your breeding program. If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them to [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]other qualities this dog was known for. Now I was in the yard of Gary Hammond and he [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]showed me the purest Alligator dog he had, and to my surprise it was a buckskin and [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]white. Although i never said anything out of respect. To me this was a big shock. as I [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]found out that the Alligator breeders over there try to have as much Alligator or his son [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow](Rufus) shown in a pedigree, but they did not select on colour or type. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]I realized that the purity of them families dropped by 40% in my mind, as they bred on a[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow] paper %. I also realised why they could breed much tighter now than we could, [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]because they stack and pack various amounts of different dogs. With colours from white[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow] to brindle, red to buckskin and black in to the genetic pool, the result is a great [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]diversity of different acting and looking dogs out of the same breeding. To my mind this [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]shows a lack of understanding in breeding dogs, they see it as a short cut if you are [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]able to keep 50/100/200 dogs . In the US they call this a breeding crap shoot, which [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]more or less confirms their way of thinking on breeding. Now, we have been breeding [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]better dogs % wise in this part of the world , probably because of lack of space and [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]could not afford to feed so many dogs or just had dogs that lacked quality. We have all [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]had are mother or auntie say - "Johnny boy you look and act like your grand-father in [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]every way". In theory you are only carrying 25% of your grand-fathers gene pool, but in [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]real life you could be a throw back to him and be carrying 75/80% of his gene pool, and [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]this how it works in the dogs. Too often people look at the pedigree and not the dog, [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]and breed such and so to such and so - because it looks good on paper and yes then [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]the outcome becomes like a crap shoot. If I breed for the Alligator type of dog, the apple[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow] must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But the one that resembles [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say his buckskin brother is [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]much better quality than him - why don't you use him?. My answer to that, is a dog like [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a genetic build up of dogs prior to [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his colour type and quality, so you can [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]see there is a difference between breeding stock and brood stock. Of course the brood [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]stock must be of the same quality as the stud stock, this you do by weeding out the [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]bad dogs and you will be left with a couple dogs that resemble the original dog you are [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]breeding for. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]From this foundation stock, this is where your breeding really starts. And you will find [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]your breeding is a hell of a lot tighter, with less breeding needed and you are less [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]dependent on the name of a particular dog. This means that a dog that has Alligator 6 [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]times in his pedigree is much tighter and purer than a dog that has Alligator in his [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]pedigree 12 or 15 times. Recognizing type and colour is a very unrecognized tool for [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]breeding good quality game dogs. Another example of of breeding good dogs, or should [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]I say a VERY good example is the Nigerino dogs. I am sure that most of you know this [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]dog, or have at least heard of him. Well take a look at his pedigree, he is 75% Eli Jr and[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow] 25% Gr Ch Art. From that Art blood, 50% is Eli too, meaning 50% of Art is Claytons [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]Java. And in the pedigree of Nigerino she is only 12 1/2 % present, but this bitch had a [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]phenomenal influence on Nigerino and Art was his grand daddy. Now Gr Ch Art was red [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]and won all his matches in short order. Some say he was blessed by the Eli Jr style [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]which is true to a certain extent I would say. But Nigerino got his ability, his style, his [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]colour and his conformation from Art. Now Nigerino was a prepotent dog and produced [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]lots and lots of dogs red in colour with black masks like he and Art had. All the way [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]down from Art to Nigerino his grandson who produced his son Red Rover, who produced[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow] our bitch Rosey. They are red dogs with a blackish mask and perform in a very quick [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]way. If we start looking at the pedigree the dominant dog by far is Eli Jr, I believe he is [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]there 35 times. If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes she is still an [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete throwback to [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess. Your questions[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow] and papers are inportant of course, but nothing is more inportant than using the type [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]and colour tool, if you are breeding for a certain dog. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]JAMES BOND[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]aka "Alpha Male" [/FONT]​




    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow]page 3[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,adobe-helvetica,Arial Narrow](next page)[/FONT]​
     
  2. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    Pardon the ignorance, but is this SERIOUS....:confused:
     
  3. Palamino

    Palamino Little Dog

    When it comes to performance breeds, aesthetics must definitely take a back seat as far as I am concerned. Color can definitely only and ever be of aesthetic value in the fighting bulldog.

    Eye and coat color did the working Siberian Husky great harm – when the Black & White blue eyed dog became popular, they were bred en masse solely for aesthetics. There exists many “pretty†husky’s today who are devoid of the working temperament and ability because of this. On the other hand, you have the working Alaskan bred only for performance – he might look like “shit†but God, can he run!
    In other breeds, color is a prerequisite and these I support when they are for practical functional requirements. One example that comes to mind is a working Parson that hunts with a pack of hounds – his job is to flush a fox out of its den for the hounds to chase down – he should be of pure white body with only a small amount of color being permitted on his head and ears – he could never be the same color as the prey animal for obvious reasons.
    Also, consider a weight pull competition – if the gamest competitor is also the dog that pulls the most weight and he is a common innocuous looking little buckskin dog with not the greatest conformation and the dog that comes last is the world conformation champion with stunning black and white markings and that million dollar look but with little desire to pull, which one would you take home if weight pull was your game? Which one would sire your puppies if weight pull was your game?

    Let’s take an easy example, let’s use the red gene as applicable for coat color - it is a recessive gene so it is carried in the genotype of a colored dog and only displays itself when it meets another red recessive gene – the puppy that has both these red recessives will be red, even though his parents are colored. So, if you have a red puppy, the double recessive genes that he has inherited from his sire and dam will make him homozygous dominant to produce red. When red is bred to red, only red can result. So when working with a pure red strain, it would be easy to breed purely for function and maintain the red.
    A brindle to a black and white – whole different ball game.

    In closing, any performance dog breeder who uses color as a primary determination as opposed to function is shooting himself in the foot and will be the one "limping in last."
     
  4. Palamino

    Palamino Little Dog

    "If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes she is still an Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete throwback to Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess." :no2:

    Not so! She can’t be “complete” in the context that I understand complete to be – she might have their phenotype and carry their genes, but that is all. (Even though she is one helluva well bred bitch which we would all want to own.) Art, Nigerino and Eli Jr were not selected for their color nor for their looks – they were selected for their gameness and for their incredible destructive ability to fight very, very well. For her to be “complete” in the eyes of a bulldog breeder, she would have had to possess the fighting ability of her ancestors and not JUST their looks/color. (Just my opinion.) :grin:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2007
  5. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    "So when working with a pure red strain, it would be easy to breed purely for function and maintain the red.
    A brindle to a black and white – whole different ball game.


    In closing, any performance dog breeder who uses color as a primary determination as opposed to function is shooting himself in the foot and will be the one "limping in last." "

    Good summary. It captures both arguments / philosophy well. When the hard work is already done correctly (BREEDING HOMEWORK) , I see nothing wrong with picking the pup buy color if you are buying from a litter. Of course, there is no way to assure anything, but when a litter has been performance bred, you may be all right. If you are doing the breeding and have the space, its best to study the pups, and determine which one preforms the best. The color "shortcut", only works when bred correctly. IE: A 100% succussful litter, or repeat breeding of such.
    Breeding for color, when the needed criteria is for performance , is a definate no-no. Also, If you have a hunch about a pup, but pick for the color instead, you'd be better off making arrangements, for the original pup that you had a feeling about, in case the color thing doesn't work out, but your gut instincts did.
     
  6. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    This is 100% true, as "GAMENESS", doesn't have anything to do with color. The color thing is merely a candle, to help illuminate the proverbial shot in the dark.
     

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