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Supplements

Discussion in 'Bull Terrier' started by aprotopo, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    What supplements and medication do you guys give your bullies?

    Sonya gets salmon oil and hydroxizine twice a day.

    Thanks!
     
  2. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    salmon oil when fish isn't plentiful / cheap, and chicken/turkey feet and soon to have beef/pork trachea for glucosamine and chondroiton.
     
  3. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    Thanks!

    The reason I ask is actually because Sonya's allergies have gotten worse even though I'm feeding a raw diet as well as hydroxizine 3 times a day.. I don't want to do steroid shots with her, and I can't afford a holistic vet yet, but I was just hoping that someone out there could recommend something that worked for them... I don't think that she has food allergies, since I was feeding only one protein source at a time and she still was allergic to something. Can anyone help with recommendations?
     
  4. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    Environmental allergies will persist even when raw feeding, have you had allergy testing done to see what the problem was? If not that is the step i would take to find out what is causing her problems, we will soon be doing it with Tobi as soon as we rule out a Zinc absorption problem.

    how long have you been doing the salmon oil? is that a possible culprit?

    What different proteins have you tried? and for how long? The reason i ask that is because often times dogs aren't allergic to the protein source they may be allergic to something in the protein source due to how it was raised/fed.

    For instance, Tobi had terrible coat problems to the point he was turning orange from an excess of Omega 6's in the chicken skin/fat. it took a while to see that it was the culprit, hell the vet couldn't even give me a head start on what the problem could be it just took a lot of patience and research along with changing his main protien... he's happier with red meats anyhow! :lol:
     
  5. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    I've heard mixed reviews about doing allergy testing. I don't want to spend thousands to have the vet tell me that it's environmental...

    What's a zinc absorption problem?

    Whenever I stop the salmon oil, her skin seems to get worse, so I doubt that that's the culprit.. I've tried chicken, turkey, beef, pork, tilapia, eggs, goat (in that order). She was itchy during every protein, so maybe chicken? However, I don't feed her much poultry and she still is breaking out. Would you recommend cutting chicken out completely for a bit to see if she improves?

    If it is environmental and not food related, how would I go about figuring out what it is that's causing it? We don't wash her bed that often, so I doubt that it's the detergent. We don't use much air fresheners/ perfumes, etc. I wash her with a medicated shampoo, but I just got a hypoallergenic one to try that out to see if she improves. She definitely get's worse when I have her leather collar on, so I know that that can cause an allergy for her. We don't have a leather couch or anything like that. She also gets worse when she plays with other dogs. I don't know if it's from actual physical contact or just the other dog becomes the allergen. I don't think that she gets worse when she goes outside. We don't spend much time on the grass anyways.

    Thanks for the help, I really don't know what to do next..
     
  6. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    zinc absorption is just essentially some of their bodies have a hard time absorbing it naturally, so often times they are needing supplements so that the zinc deficiency doesn't open them up to infection as zinc helps to strengthen the immune system.

    they can be deficient on kibble or raw, if oral supplements don't work then shots are given with sterile zinc, we've not tried oral administered yet we've been giving oysters lately to see if it helps. (highest content of zinc available in any protein)

    The allergies are so hard to understand or figure out as i understand to find out if it is environmental it would be the same course of action, they could test for pollen, grass etc
    We use a hypo allergenic shampoo, but tbh he's not gotten a bath in about 4 months since raw he doesn't stink :lol:

    does any other collar cause a problem? Tobi gets a bit of a heat rash on long hot humid days on his neck no matter what kind of collar he's got on, could that be a culprit?
     
  7. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    I don't even have a collar on while she's in the house..I just read that tongue is high in zinc, have you heard that before? I can give that a try since its not too expensive as compared to oysters.
     
  8. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    I have two dogs that are allergic to flax seed, a supplement often added to many treats and pre-made raw diets. They break out in hives when they get it.
    Have you ever considered that it could be stress related? Some dogs will break out in hives when they are in somewhat stressful situations and you mentioned it happened when playing with other dogs and also when putting on a collar that she normally doesn't wear. Once on, she knows she is going out somewhere and her stress level may rise.

    Try giving her some BACH'S RESCUE REMEDY 1/2 - 3/4 of an hour before the situation begins and another when you arrive at the location. I give a half dropper full whenever we use it. This is also how I got the dogs to allow me to dremel their nails, 4 or 5 times and now they just come lay down for me. No longer need to use the Rescue Remedy.

    I also fed mine raw and had a terrible problem with one bitch. Even did thyroid screening. Vet recommended going on Atopica but I definitely did not want long term drug use. Switched to Taste Of The Wild Salmon and she cleared right up. She had bumps, hair loss, and an overgrowth of yeast with black pigmentation marks all over her undersides. Many have had excellent results with T.O.T.W.

    The use of steroids will definitely suppress her immune system, they are only a short term fix. Get her off them as soon as you can.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2011
  9. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    Thanks Bullfull, I don't want to use steroids either. She's on an antihistamine now, not a steroid. I just switched her to raw. I've been feeding her grain-free natural balance before and she had the same allergies then too. I switched to raw hoping that it would help her, but now I'm so convinced that raw is the way to go that I'm definitely not going back even if her allergies don't improve.

    I really doubt it's stress related. She is a very chilled out dog, sleeps for most of the day, sleeps in the car, doesn't spook or scare easily (except the vacuum cleaner which is her arch nemesis). I can give the rescue remedy a try, but I really doubt that it will help with the skin. I really appreciate the ides though! If you have any more I would LOVE to hear them as I don't know what to do.
     
  10. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    lol believe it or not, the tongue around here can get is nearly as much as the oysters, thing is though.... from 3 weeks of oysters it's not working... which is what i feared and i may have to get a supplement. (apparently they can absorb a powder form 80-90% easier than food form) :confused:

    I'm so happy to see that Sonya is working on raw much better this time!!! I really hope that you can pinpoint this allergen :/

    I do have one more question though... how do her nails look? is there a red filmy stuff at the base of them?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2011
  11. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    Yeah the top of the nails is brown and her feet are always inflamed and yeasty looking. I think you had a picture of Tobi's feet on here and they look the same as Sonya's (unless I'm mixing Tobi up with another dog on here..)
     
  12. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    no its probably him :lol:

    that is how tobi's are... and i'm finding this...
    http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/grooming/nailconditions3.htm

    I
    'm going to pick up a zinc supplement tonight and start him on it. I'll get the vet to recommend how much but they've been no help in the process thus far.

    If you read up on what zinc does for the body it will make so much more sense... in short it helps with T-cell regeneration, which in turn helps with immune disorders such as yeasty paws etc.
    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: tdsmal"]Zinc responsive dermatosis[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdsmal"]Three types: I in Huskies and Malamutes; II in rapidly growing puppies of large breeds; III in English Bull Terriers[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdsmal"]Crusting and scaling, redness, hair loss, sometimes oily skin, secondary bacterial infections common[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdsmal"]History, breed, physical exam, skin biopsy[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdsmal"]Correct any dietary deficiency, medicated shampoos, treatsecondary infections[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    An because a secondary Infection occurs because the tissue and its natural defenses have been damaged by another condition, it's leaving them open to yeasty paws and itchy skin :(

    Since we very well could be having the same problem... i figured i'd post what i've found.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2011
  13. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    Thanks so much for that article! I might have to give the zinc supplements a try!

    ---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

    Ok, I'm convinced! Going to order some supplements now...

    ---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

    Is this what the kelp is for? (Sorry I keep posting separate messages, but I keep having new questions as I'm reading online)
     
  14. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    I honestly don't know what kelp would be used for, i've not looked deeply into it :/
     
  15. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    I called my vet to ask what the dosage for a zinc supplement would be if I bought a human grade one from walmart. I'll post it here when I get a call back from them. It will be interesting to see if the two vets recommend the same dosage!
     
  16. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    I understand that there are possible differences in the solubility of the human and animal grade ones... I'm going to ask my vet about it and see if we should get a dog one or if human grade is okay.
     
  17. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    My vet recommended:
    NutriVed Chewable Zinpro Tablets is a chewable dietary supplement of soluble zinc methionine for dogs. Ingredients: Zinc methionine, liver meal, roast beef flavor, dried whey, calcium carbonate, and artificial color. Dosage & Administration: Administer one (1) chewable tablet each day to provide 15 mg of zinc per day for each 20 lbs. of body weight. Caution: The product is intended for intermittent or supplemental feeding only. For animal use only.

    I don't like all the extra ingredients though... I talked to the receptionist who said that there is 4 different kinds of human grade zinc supplements and she doesn't want to take the time to explain the differences to me (as I understand..) and so she knows that zinpro is safe and that she has used it before. I'm leaning towards talking with a pharmacists, they usually know this kind of stuff even about dogs. I'll let you know what I find out.

    Now that I think about it... the "active" ingredient is zinc methionine, so wouldn't I have to just find a human supplement that is just that and then just figure out the correct dosing.
     
  18. Mardi

    Mardi Puppy

    I have two of my dogs on Zinpro, the powder not the pills. They put that stuff in the pills to make it more paolatable for the dogs. The powder has other stuff too like Brewer's yeast and is really stinky. I mix it into ground meat or wet food. The reason the vets like Zinpro (and it's kinda expensive) is because research showed that zinc absorption in dogs is better with the methionine. You cannot find zinc methionine as a human supplement (or if you can, please let me know!!!) The other good thing about Zinpro is that the Omegas needed to hasten zinc absorption are added to the powder (not sure about the pills) so that is one less thing to worry about. It is actually, I believe, Omega 6 that helps that absorption, and that is not usually found so much in human supplements. Many people I know with dogs who don't have problems, jsut as a precautionary measure, feed 10 mg of zinc a day and jsut buy the pills at their vitamin store. That should be a safe dose for a medium sized bull terrier. In that case, you can probalby get any zinc pill binding agent (gluconate, sulfate, acetate). I have also recnetly ordered something called System Saver, wyhich was reocmmended to me by someone who doesn't necessarily go nuts over holistic supplements but had fantastic results with it, although for joint issues, although it is supposed to help immune conditions too. I can report back in a month or so if someone reminds me LOL BTW, the folks at Lincoln Biotech have a guy you can call to answer questions about the Zinpro. He was really nice and VERY helpful, and you may want to try talking directly to him about it. http://www.lincolnbiotech.com/ You may have to dig around to find his contact info, but it is worth it to talk to him.
     
  19. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    Wow thanks Mardi! Great information! Zinc monomethionine exists in human grade form. I don't know of it's different or not.. Hopefully, there are some chemists here that can clue us in?

    Isn't omega 6 found in chicken fat/skin? I thought that too much of that isn't very good. I'm guessing people who feed raw already feed quite a bit of that, so we wouldn't need to supplement?

    I'll definitely ask you about that System Saver! I'm not much into holistic medicine myself, but I just don't trust dog food (and sometimes drug) companies...

    Thanks again!

    Found one, but they only ship to Europe :( :
    BioCare OptiZinc (Zinc methionine) 75mg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2011
  20. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    Awesome info Mardi i'm going to look into the Zinpro. Our vet looked up the dosages and wanted us to start on 250mg twice a day with Tobi. He said specifically Zinc Gluconate. I'm not exactly sure why this one and not something else, but it makes me want to look deeper into it. I'm going to try to find a Zinc gluconate powder or pill specifically to see if it makes a difference for about 30 days.


    The Association of Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) sets guidelines for the minimum daily requirements of all nutrients for dogs and puppies. There have been several studies done on zinc and the racing Alaskan Huskies and those numbers are listed as a comparison.
    [TABLE="align: center"]
    [TR]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: tdlgal"]Growing puppy[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdlg"]120[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdlg"]1000[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: tdlgal"]Adult dog[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdlg"]120[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdlg"]1000[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: tdlgal"]Racing sled dogs[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdlg"]150 (Optimum)[/TD]
    [TD="class: tdlg"]300

    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]


    Having said that... here is what i'm going to order :P https://howlingdogalaska.com/index.php?page=zincgluco
    N
    ow the thing with this site is that it says for possible deficient dogs you may triple or quadruple the dosage not to exceed that much for possible copper deficiency... /sigh SO i hate getting conflicting information :lol:

    But this stuff is high grade and pretty affordable. 1 level tsp = 650mg zinc and comes in big bottles.

    I'm going to make more phone calls and get some more information on possible dosages and what they think about the high 500mg dose my vet recommended.
     

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