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Should the definition of GAMENESS be "REVISED"?

Discussion in 'Today's APBT' started by EDOGZ818, May 21, 2008.

  1. YES

    15 vote(s)
  2. NO

    41 vote(s)
  1. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    Gameness is the willingness to keep at the task against all odds. IMO, a dog does not have to fight another dog to be considered game. Gameness as a canine term did not even originate from dogmen, but most likely from terriermen. In the Irish Kennel club concerning several terrier breeds, you were required have your dog undergo a trial and gain a certificate of gameness (Teastas Mor) to be considered a champion. While the Teastas Mor no longer exists, the American Working Terrier Association does offer a certificate of gameness though it has been argued that it's more of an instinct test and I am inclined to agree.

    To me, gameness is the willingness to complete the task you have given the dog despite the threat of serious injury or receiving injury and still displaying a deep and extreme willingness to engage that target. For the APBT, that target often was and in many places is another dog. But as I said before, in my opinion it doesn't have to be.

    I have a buddy who lives in the midwest whose APBT got into it with a cougar that had been killing livestock on his property. Cougar broke the dog's front leg and caused some serious internal injuries trying to get her off and she still hung on. Even after they broke her off and that cougar was dead she was still screaming to get back to it. There's no one in the world who could look me in the face and tell me that's not gameness that I would believe.

    But at the same time, gameness does not a dangerous dog make, despite pro-BSL propaganda. Gameness is a trait that is normal to an extent for terrier breeds and terrier breed mixes. It doesn't make them bad dogs, but it's one of the reasons terriers as a whole are not dogs whose adoptions and breeder placements should be taken lightly
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2013
  2. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Uh, Ummmmm....


    Will ad that gameness isn't always hereditary.
  3. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    Gamness isnt always passed on, and sometimes it does skip a generation etc, but you are more likely to get game dogs if you breed game to game. Its just a fact.
  4. Buddy's Master

    Buddy's Master Little Dog

    I say yes, it should be. The Pitbull Federation of South Africa prohibits its members from using the word but I think we should just change the meaning to be relevant to how we positively use the breed now.
  5. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    No. This makes absolutely no sense, because there's nothing wrong with gameness, It is highly prized in ANY terrier type and your federation's hurt feefees on the matter are really not relevant
  6. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    Exactly DWC.. dont like the meaning of that word, so what? Use a different word to describe your dogs
  7. Tanktastic

    Tanktastic Big Dog

    I agree with DWC and pookie. Use the word tenacious/tenacity. You cannot simply change the definition of a word just because someone finds it offensive.
  8. catchrcall

    catchrcall Good Dog Staff Member

    I asked a hog one time if BA was "game". He didn't give a shit. BA doesn't either, nor does Beetle for that matter they just knows they like to catch. Neither do I. I'm perfectly happy to leave it to the dog fighters, or more commonly, the wannabes. Its usually some idiot throwing the term around anyway, which gives me even less desire to be associated with it in any way.
  9. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Might as well change the definition of gameness.....they already changed the definition of the dog!
  10. foxman

    foxman Puppy

    I tell everyone that gameness is measured like a car Battery. We use to call it amp hours in a battery. The more amp hours you got when purchasing your battery the more times it would crank before it needed charged. Dogs vary in their gameness just like amp hours in a battery. There is no true recipe for getting gameness in a dog. You can test him condition him and if he shows good. Then the next time out he may quit in 5 minutes. A man that use to fight chickens told me. He fought his gamecocks only once. He never did have one quit that was just fought once. He would pull their heads off after that one win fight. He had learned he could win derbys with those that hadn't been fought. Yet when he fought them twise some would quit in the second fight. Some dogs are born with natural air but conditioning helps that also. Some can take more pain. Some dogs have to be winning 80 % of the fight to stay for a long battle. Other dogs can win 50% of the battle to never quit. Some dogs if he is a 100% game dog will fight till he he is completely cut down and exhausted even if he never was on his feet and will still scratch. He will die right there in the pit. Some dogs have to be your friend to win. Others are little crazy and don't care if you like them or not. All they want to do is fight. In the old days I fought lots of dogs and that is my story. I wrote something the other day and it didn't get posted. So I am trying again.
  11. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Well put Foxman.

    Not saying I would match an untested dog......but I wouldn't test him for 1-3hrs.

    *Pre 1976 Animal Cruelty Act
  12. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    Good stuff foxman
  13. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Thanks for chiming in Foxman
  14. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    @Joe Bingo...Where's Rowdy?
  15. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Hey Dawg !!! Looong time man. Hope all is well !!!

    I lost Rowdy in Sept 2011 to grade 3 mast cell cancer. He was eaten up with it by the time the vet caught it. I even traveled out of town to a specialist. Sadly, I had to make a tough but right decision for my buddy boy and let him go with a prognosis of about 2 months to live, while he was still strong and proud and just on the cusp of suffering. Rowdy was two months shy of only 5 years old. I miss that boy but have moved on. Cancer sucks !!!
  16. foxman

    foxman Puppy

    I never did test a dog very long back in the day. I used Earl Tudor's Method. I ran him for five miles and let him fight a maximum of 30 minutes. That way he didn't have to fight so long and get cut up bad and I could test his air and stamina at the same time. All this happened before any felony dogfight laws were passed. Earl had a beautiful male dog I had brought a young dog to roll at him in the 60's. Oh Earls dog looked good and ate my dog up in a hurry. I ask him what he wanted for him. He said I could have him if he passed his test. We made a date to roll him in two weeks. I brought a little above average dog over to roll him with. Earl ran his dog five miles and put him right in the pit. He quit in ten minutes. I thought the first time I saw him go he was the answer to a dogmans prayer. Yet he was a worthless beauty. He just looked the part. Lots of disappointments in those days.
  17. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    @Joe Bingo:
    That your new boy in avi?

    @Fox :
    I always heard that they learned styles in 2 mins, so a 20 min roll, could be broken down into 6 + 2 min rolls with scratches, as wear & tear plays a roll.

    I "heard" :dance2: many hooked cheap as a game test, meaning the keep was more than the purse.

    Just because a dogs quits doesn't mean they won't produce, 4x winners have quit, and it didn't change their genetics or alter their legacy because they were too old, etc.
  18. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Randy, you can see in my avatar, I have a young (pure as the driven snow) Colby dog. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=460620
    At 19 months (as of yesterday) , Mason is a soft ... stone cold... house dog. A GREAT pet and companion though LOL, and might finish something if another dog started it :dunno:

    Anyway, I know that apparently not many dog men were partial to Colby's after JP passed. I've read some say that JP rolled harder than he matched ... and Colby's aren't highly regarded today as as "working" dogs ... maybe some crosses and outs are doing well. Colby's are said to be often slow to turn on, if at all and I understand why folks wouldn't want to feed a dog for three or four years waiting to find out and even then ... they're getting old for the "game".

    So I think I get it ... but my question is ... back in the day when you were active, what were the general thoughts about Colby dogs ??

    And one other question I had someone personally ask Lou and I got an answer back second hand ... and wanted your thoughts. I wondered why Colby didn't care for or didn't produce red nose dogs and where did they come from? According to my friend who spoke with Lou, his response was that during the depression (1930's) everyone was scrapping by ... even dog men. I was told Lou said that the red nose dogs came mostly out of the Midwest and especially during the depression ... to sell and make some money off the general public. The red nose at that time was a fad just like the blue nose dogs are today. I KNOW there were red nose dogs since at least the late 1800's early 1900's but in the old old magazines and books of the time that I have read ... only creed given is to black nose dogs. There's little or no mention at all of red nose. Thoughts?
  19. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    One other question Randy ... I know you are or were into Patterdales for a number of years. Do you admire them for the same reasons as you do pit bulls or is it something different all together?

    I looked at your website for the first time, 3 or 4 years ago before you deleted a lot of stuff. I found everything on your site fascinating. Thank you for sharing.
  20. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Not sure about Red Noses, I thought they were always there & OFRN was as much a part of the history as Colby.

    In my day. Colby's day was passed, or passing, but his dogs were always considered solid.....just like his carpet mill.

    Times changed, Sonny Liston, Ali, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, Klitcho brothers, etc....Bill Russel, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, etc......same with Colby...new blood & new lines...eventually improve....but I suspect Colby's dogs are no exception & improved as well, but post 1976, you won't hear about them.

    I think he went "SHOW?" at one point, if so, that explains why traditionalist didn't follow.

    Without a doubt, Colby breeds APBT, and I'd be honored to have something off his yard.

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