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Should the definition of GAMENESS be "REVISED"?

Discussion in 'Today's APBT' started by EDOGZ818, May 21, 2008.

  1. YES

    15 vote(s)
  2. NO

    41 vote(s)
  1. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Staff Member Administrator

  2. Rai_77

    Rai_77 Good Dog

    What do you think people are scared of?
  3. Miakoda

    Miakoda GRCH Dog

    Courage is courage. Agility is agilty. Technique is technique. Wind is wind. Strength is strength.

    Do you get what I'm saying? ALL of those things have their own names. NONE of those is the equivalent of gameness. All of those together do not equal gameness.

    And what you are speaking of, being taught how to box, has nothing to do with gameness. Encouraging a dog to go or front leg holds is not teaching him gameness....it's teaching tactics/strategy.

    And like I said earlier, there are many Champions out there that are not game dogs and there are even more that were never fully tested so it cannot be said with certainty if they were or were not. And several times it was the dog that lost in a match that was declared the game dog. That "loser" might have had a soft mouth and not as good wind, but it had what the other dog did not.....an innate will to not just continue to fight through adversity, but the innate belief that with enough fighting on it's part it could turn the tables and win. That my friend, can NEVER be taught.
  4. gonloco

    gonloco Little Dog

    So if you "teach" your dog to be hard, does that make you hard? You were introduced to fighting, and liked it. Gameness is a genetically inherited trait, infused into bulldogs since their beginning. If you have to teach your dog to fight, it's probably a cur anyways. By the way, legging and other holds occur naturally and vary from dog to dog. You're no bulldog...:mad:
  5. ColbyDogs

    ColbyDogs Big Dog

    90% owner 10% dog ?

    Who needs the education more ?

    I will agree that owner handler has his/her role in how a dog turns out from the work that goes into the preperation of the dog but to say its 90% on the owner is wrong. The dog is born with the tools to succeed man just helps it hone in on those tools and prepares the dog for the long haul.

    Either the dog has what it takes or it doesn't.
  6. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    The only "uneducated" garbage I see are these posts. Who exactly is scared of what?
    This breed was born with natural DA...you do not train it in them, you do not train it out of them. It matters little what the human does or does not do as far as that goes. The dog makes the dog, not the human. When it comes to gameness it is nothing but the dog.
    ENOUGH said.

    It almost sounds as though you are speaking of HUMAN aggression...HA is not game, it is stupid.
    This breed is naturally loyal, courageous, DA, and intelligent. You cannot pick out a "game" or "DA" PUPPY from a litter. Treating the dog any certain way is not going to make them DA, they are mostly going to be that way to begin with, if they were bred properly.

    The line in bold reminds of a gangster, hood-rat, street thug's mentality of this breed. Pure ignorance.

    You have just basically said if you portray yourself as a HARD, MEAN, DECEITFUL, CARELESS and PROVOCATIVE person, your dog will be the same way, but if you act like a pansy your dog will too.

    You have a lot to learn, please stick around and I encourage you read as much here as you possibly can.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  7. k-nine

    k-nine Banned

    there is a few ways u can test ur dog thats legal 1 being conditioning ur dog and see if he stops when he gets super tired just like in a contest most dogs dont quit from fear of the other dog its he so tired he cant go on he's not game enought to push it till the limit my pitbull chopper i have to stop him cause he will keep going and going its like he dont know when to slow his pace down and cool off when where on pullwalks treadmill runs i think thats game is when he is willing cause harm to himself before stopping a task put before him by his master! to all that dont know game dont mean my dog will fight. game comes out when all has gone wrong when everything says stop and he keeps going wether its fighting,pulling weights,or running,a real game dog will stop when stopped .da dont mean anything
  8. dogonit

    dogonit Puppy

    some of u here will taken anything and run with.im educated,lets not try an belittle anyone.stop taken everything u read to be the truth.i will be ignorant,but at the same time smart,because i will tell yall anything and you will believe it.why own a dog then try to give a better name,the name speaks for its self,now take that and run with it.no matter what u say if they ban pits,what will you do?cry(cur)out to the news ,media,and other ban fans.U can just imagine what i would do huh?what i wouldnt do is fall the banana in the tail pipe either.Man! keep it low for the sake of the breed and the people.yall get folks knocked off.justa rattling peoples names and business.that is a charge,ya know,slander?The dog game is still serious,like most of you quote when selling off or out your breed"SERIOUS INQUIRES ONLY"why say that and then turn around and sell a dog/pup to a complete stranger.some of yall can take the gameness out of the breed.Hell if you really wanted a game-ass dog,you would know where to get it,and you wouldnt be in suspense about what you have or really want.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2008
  9. ColbyDogs

    ColbyDogs Big Dog

    Anyone here selling a secret decoder ring ?....Anyone ?

    Dogonit what in the hell is all that suppose to mean ? You might be taken seriously if you were making any kind of sence however I cannot figure out your point in all that jibber jabber.

    Sorry but I cannot follow you to have a legitimate debate.
  10. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    You were right in stating that Dog Aggression means nothing, but the rest of that is way off base...

    You can not test gameness by conditioning lol!!! That is precisely why gameness has a seperate definition. Super tired from running on a treadmill or his ability to not quit when exercising is called wind. Your dog is not game because he exercises hard nor is anyone elses. A truly game, a deep game dog is few and far between. You can not determine a game bulldog other than testing him. Period. No amount of exercise, enthusiasm, or obedience telling him to stop) will replace this. Ever...no matter how its twisted.

    This thread has went a long ways, but it doesn't look like anyone demonstrated what gameness is...see the following thread on Wallace's Toney http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=3154&highlight=wallaces+toney that me friend is game, and exercise has nothing to do with it lol...
  11. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Okay, I had to break it down, where the puncuation was placed in your sentence structure. My comments are in blue
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2008
  12. k-nine

    k-nine Banned

    ur crazy what i said goes hand and hand with game when a dog is in the pit being fucked up beyound repair without a chance to win and its damn near dead and wont quit is called game/deadgame and like i said before when he goes to the point till it aint healthy beyound heat stroke and cant breath and only wants more is game thats the only way besides the pit u will get to knowing how far ur dog will go BUDDY it may not be the definition on that site but it has the same meaning AND I DONT HAVE ANY ? TO IS MY DOGS GAME OR NOT ITS WETHER OR NOT U WANT TO FIND OUT
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2008
  13. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    tough internet talk doesn't make your dog game...

    Gameness is a genetic trait. Read about it. I provided the link to further you're perspective. Bob Wallace founded his line on Toney because of performance in the box. Crenshaw's Jeep went into O. Steven's Homer without a turn until the 3 hour mark. His line was based off of his performance. Ever heard of them or similiar stories? They never tell about how much the dog would take on the treadmill. In fact, if you read many of the old keeps treadmill work rarely exceeds 20 minutes. THis is conditioning and not gameness. Two seperate functions. If there is a line of dogs that was founded on a dogs ability to run on a treadmill then Im the one thats off. Have you ever heard of that? Really? If there is a line that was founded on that they didn't last long. The elusive trait if gameness was what was sought after and everything else was left to fall into place...call me crazy if you like, but I'll stay traditional in my views.

    Dead game means dead dog BTW. You are confusing that definition as well.

    You are talking about running a dog on a treadmill as a means of testing gameness. Like I said you're post was entertaining, but way off base. You are talking about wind and conditioning as I stated. This has nothing to do eith game. Did you even read the story about Wallace's Toney? With both shoulders broken he made a scratch that took two minutes. He then took hold and has to be taken off with a parting stick. How can you compare that to your dog getting tired on a treadmill? This is the issue people want to revise historical definitions in order to fit how they view themselves today.

    Finally, I'll give your newb ass another lesson. Don't incriminate yourself on a public forum.. Your tough ass internet role play is one thing, but seriously your posting betrays the fact that you don't know shit. Your threats are meaningless and to answer on my behalf would be illegal. Your bluff was called. Stop posing and continue to research the history of this great breed.

  14. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    @K-Nine...I'll even save you from having to research because again I feel that this thread was set up because no one ever set a standard for gameness allowing this conversation to sip into the realm of ridiculous at points. I offer to you the following article written by a former editor of the ABDA Gazette (you ever heard of that magazine or organization?)...in light of this new info and the story behind Wallace's Toney are you still going to insist that conditioning tests gameness? Really?

    "Recently an old friend asked me, "why do you have such an interest in fighting dogs?" if you ever asked yourself that question, you know that when you truly have the answer you know a lot more about yourself. in trying to explain it to my friend, i realized that for me, it all comes down to gameness.

    i think Gameness was what attracted the old time dog fighters to the Pit bull. i think Gameness is the attraction, for that small hardcore element that has been known to set them down for money even today. true, some people call them gamblers, but there are plenty of ways that offer faster action then bulldogs.

    i also don't think you have to be a dog fighter to appreciate that Gameness; as evidenced by a new breed of fancier who keeps the dogs for show and companionships. of course, every Pit bull has admired the power, agility, stamina, and biting of a well bred Bulldog; but these qualities are also present in other breeds. i've heard knowledgeable people say an airedale bites harder then a Bulldog and it's probably true. it would be awfully hard to beat a walker or bluetick hound for stamina; and just watch a german short hair quartering a field if you want to see a beautiful exhibition of fluid motion. but when it comes to single minded drive and persistence, and indomitable will to be master, nothing on earth compares to our american Pit bull terrier.

    when a dog fighter had a dog "open to match", he only specified the weight not the breed. now, if a man could have won the money with any other breed of dog, you know he would've used it. but in many years as a fancier, i've never even heard of a another breed of dog being used in a fight. that's because regardless of their physical attributes, they cant compete with a bulldogs will to win. true over the years we have developed a dog with some pretty impressive equipment, but without the Gameness he is just another pretty face.

    i realized in talking to my non-violent lady friend that trying to describe Gameness to some people is impossible. it's like describing how something tastes. if you haven't experienced something just like it, words cant convey the thought.

    my friend however, has an advantage over most people because of her work. she is a psychologist who counsels people who have terminal illnesses. we talked about her experiences with the way different people Handle their adversity. she spoke with pity of those who, having learned of their fate, breakdown completely becoming incapable of continuing their day to day lives; crying and sobbing; a burden to themselves and their families. invariably, she said the end comes sooner for those people.
    she spoke admiringly of some of her "favorites", they were persons who although they knew the prognosis, either wouldn't accept it, or they wouldn't let it change their outlook on life. they went about their daily lives, sometimes with more vigor then before, not giving up, even though the handwriting is on the wall. my friends, that's gameness!
    harking back to the days when dogs were fought in the Pit. when an owner has conceded a long hard battle in order to save his dog, he frequently asked for a Courtesy Scratch to prove the Gameness of his dog, even though he had lost the fight. he may have made a good Scratch, but if at the end he had been lying "out of holds", not trying to win, then in my opinion he wasn't as Game as some, regardless of how many scratches he made.

    Gameness is not the willingness to fight, it's not the courage to get killed by a better opponent. it's the will to win!
    nothing tests that will to win more then the instinct for self-preservation. in the Pit bull, we have one of the few examples of an animal whose will to live is consistently suppressed by his will to dominate and to rule whatever ground he's standing on.

    sociologists have told us for years that the primary instincts are for sex and survival. well take a look at man. how many men have died for their women compared to the number who have died for their country? as for survival; there are a lot of bodies lying in the fields, ditches, and forests of the world that belong to men that wouldn't run. of course we're not always that brave. there was a time in our culture when we were tought to aspire to be, but i guess thats even fading.

    in spite of that, i believe that every human being that walks the earth admires Gameness when he recognizes it. some of us even seek it out. we look for it in sports that tests man's courage. we find traces of it in race horses, wild animals, and to a great degree in gamecocks. it has nothing to do with being a tough guy "who will fight at the drop of a hat". it's when your getting whipped that you find out how Game you are.
    the same is true of a Pit dog. you don't know how Game he is until you've seen him in trouble. it don't matter how he bristles when you walk another dog by his chain, or how quick he was to take hold o f the neighbors cock-a-poo. as a matter of fact, i don't believe that the overt aggressiveness of a dog is at all relevant to how Game he is. for example, i've had the honor to own a dog that came from the bottom to win a big fight in over 2 hours with no turns. the loser died and the winner was only saved by timely Shock therapy. i would say he was reasonably Game. yet, it was not uncommon to see him romping with Cur dogs that strayed through the Yard. many Game, Game dogs would not a fight Cur dogs. on the other hand, many very Game dogs were like kegs of dynamite. they would explode when they saw anything with hair on it. some rank curs that would Turn and run the minute they were topped, were the same way, and still others couldn't look a good Bulldog in the eye. initial aggressiveness just doesn't seem to relate positively or negatively to gameness.
    now aggressiveness in battle is something else again. a Game dog will Keep his hold and whats more important, he'll always have a hold. when called on to Scratch, whether he runs across or walks, he'll be leaning into your hands when you Turn to face his opponent. he'll Keep his eye on the dog and Scratch straight into him without turning his head. he'll aggressively take advantage of every opportunity to hurt his opponent.
    but when it comes to dogs, why partner, theres only one. he's not defending his children. he's not backed in the corner defending his life. he cant be ordered to do battle. his tail is up, theres joy in his heart. he's only going to whip you because your standing where he wants to stand. HE FIGHTS BECAUSE HE "IS".


    You may have some idea that I don't know what Im talking about, and thats fine as you've already called me crazy. Apparently, Mr Farmer, Bob Wallace, or James Crenshaw as I demonstrated above don't know shit either. In light of your treadmill game test really analyze the following extract from above...

    "a Game dog will Keep his hold and whats more important, he'll always have a hold. when called on to Scratch, whether he runs across or walks, he'll be leaning into your hands when you Turn to face his opponent. he'll Keep his eye on the dog and Scratch straight into him without turning his head. he'll aggressively take advantage of every opportunity to hurt his opponent."

    How the hell is that shown through conditioning?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2008
  15. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    and just to really blow your mind I'll post another good old article of the game test written by PP (ever heard of him?) They are plently of writings on this forum by Howard Heinzl, or about guys like JP Colby that are talking about gameness. Let me know when you find the one that talks about testing the dogs game ness by running him on a treadmill...

    I bolded the parts in this article on game testing for you referencing how to determine it on the treadmill (notice the abscence of bold lettering lol)
    Do pay attention to what I put in red lettering though as it will teach you a thing or two!

    The Game Test By P.P
    the Bull Terrier Times Review

    In my opinion, the Game Test is a very important part of breeding and matching gamedogs. I think that the purpose of the game test is misunderstood by many dogmen. I also think that a lot of poor advice has been written about game testing. The stories that dogmen tell about the way they game test their dogs are often exaggerations or lies. I am going to write about, why I believe dogs should be game tested and how I would test them. If you don't agree with what I have to say on the subject, feel free to skip this article or write your own. I am writing my opinion of the truth, whether it makes the reader happy or conforms to popular belief or not. I don't really care if some readers disagree with me or not, but if my advice is helpful to anyone, then I would be happy about that. I came to my opinions from twenty years experience of running a yard of sixty dogs. I won't change my opinions for you and I don't expect any experienced dogman to change his opinions for me. This article is for those that are still learning and want to read an opinion that is somewhat different than those they may have read before.
    I would describe a game test as a hard roll for your dog, usually, but not always thirty minutes or longer. It is a roll in which your dog will get hurt, tired and getting the worst of the fight. This game test will tell you what your dog will do when he is tired and being handled by his opponent. Does he have the gameness to keep trying to win against a stronger dog, when he's tired and on the bottom most of the time? How does he act in his corner? How does he scratch into a dog that's getting the best of him? The game test will answer all of these questions and also tell you about your dogs stamina and fighting abilities. A game test should never be against an opponent of the opposite sex. To make sure that your dog gets the most out of the roll, their opponent should be several pounds heavier, but do not overdo this!
    One reason to game test a dog is to see if they are worth a bet in a match. I think that the better fighter a dog is, then the less game testing they require. For instance, if you have a dog that easily handles dogs of his own size in rolls, he would probably handle his opponents in a match as well. What is the point in half killing a dog like this in a game test? He probably won't need extreme gameness to win his match, because he will be the top dog most of the time. A dog without much fighting ability will probably have to come from behind if he is going to win. I would test this type of dog somewhat harder before betting on him, because you must depend on his gameness and stamina to win a match. The other reason for game testing a dog, would be if you were going to use the dog for breeding. Any male or female I use for breeding purposes must have passed a reasonable game test to demonstrate their gameness, stamina or ability. If they could not pass this test, then I would not use them for breeding purposes, no matter how well bred they might have been.
    I think a dog should be at least two years old and mentally ready for a game test. They should be fully started and have been rolled at least four times. Some slow starters are nowhere near ready at two years old and you must go by the way they act and not their actual age. Your dog should be in perfect health, because the test will put a strain on their heart and system. I don't condition a dog for a game test, but they should be lean and healthy, but not conditioned as for a match. One of the reasons I game test a dog is to see how they act when they are tired. If they are conditioned it will take longer before they are tired, forcing the test to take longer and your dog to take more punishment. I also use these tests to see how much natural 'air' the dog has and it hard to tell this when you have worked them for six weeks. I try to roll the dog that I'm testing into a bigger dog that wrestles well, but doesn't bite hard. I believe that most dogs will quit, because they are tired and on the bottom, not from being bitten hard. The idea is to test the dogs gameness, not to break its bones. I also try to avoid rolling them into a dog that fights in the mouth, so that they won't lose any teeth.
    You should always be in control, remember this is a roll not a match. Have an idea of how you are going to test your dog. Pick an opponent of the same sex, that is about five pounds larger, a strong wrestler, but not a hard biter. This dog should outfight yours, without cutting them up or breaking any of their bones. Make sure to have a watch on, don't guess at the time, know how long the roll has lasted. The game test is to find out if your dog is reasonably game. You must use some imagination and make an educated guess as to their gameness, by the way they act during a reasonable game test. If you insist on knowing for sure whether your dog is dead game, or not, then you will probably end up killing him. I can truthfully promise anyone, that a dead dog makes a poor dog for future matches. A dead dog does not make much of a stud or brood b###h either.
    Many game dogs are killed each year in game tests by dogmen that don't know what they are doing. The story is always the same, "Gee!, he was the gamest, toughest, best damn dog I ever saw; too bad we took him a little bit too far in his game test, now he's dead..." Any fool can roll a game dog to death, it is up to you not to take him too far. I can watch a dog in a hard thirty minute roll and know about game they are. Sometimes I am confident in a dogs gameness after watching him roll for only fifteen minutes. I have the experience and the ability to know a dog is deep game without taking him to deaths door. I have learned what to look for. I have used my method of judging a dogs gameness from a medium hard roll and I have almost never been wrong. Yes!, a couple of times a dog that I'd thought to be dead game did quit in a long, hard match, but 98% of the time my judgement of a dogs gameness has been correct. This may seem like bragging on my part, but I do have the ability to spot a game dog, without half killing them in a roll and I do know other dogmen that have this ability.
    I also know other experienced dogmen, who cannot tell if a dog is game unless they see the dog take his death game. If you don't have the experience or ability to tell if a dog is game during a reasonably hard roll, then I suggest you have a trusted friend, who does have this gift, with you when you game test your dogs.
    Here are some of the things I look for when I'm testing a dog for gameness:
    1. A game dog always thinks he's winning even when he's losing. He enjoys the fight and has a confident look on his face. He always keeps trying to win.
    2. When a game dog is taken to his corner, there's no doubt that he's going to scratch. He is always looking at his opponent and trying to get at him.
    3. He scratches straight and hard, without hesitation.
    4. He will stay in holds if he can
    I breed and match dogs under the Cajun Rules. The Cajun rules is a scratching contest and scratching is the name of the game. A dog can make every 'bad move' in the book. He can turn, yelp, cry, drop his tail and put the hair up on his back, but if he makes his scratches in time, he can win the match. On the other hand, your dog can fight like an ace, throw his opponent all over the pit and cut him up, but if he fails to scratch, then you lose. I have seen many fight end up with the winner being a beaten up mess and the loser with hardly a scratch on him. Why?, because the beat up dog made his scratch and the other did not. Your dog can have all the ability in the world and be a mile ahead, but if he doesn't scratch, then you lose! This is why, the way in which my dogs act in the corner, between scratches and the way he goes across on his scratches, is so important to me. If he hesitates to bite the other dog when he gets there, then I lose confidence in the dog. Hesitation on the scratch or slow scratching is just a step away from not scratching at all. When I have the pleasure of watching a truly game dog in action for thirty minutes or so, and then see him screaming and struggling to get back to the opponent, at the end of a roll, I feel in my bones, that he is game. Matching a dog is always a gamble anyway. No test that you can give a dog will guarantee that he will win his match. The idea is to find out if he is reasonably game, without 'rolling' the life out of him. This is no joke!! I have seen great dogs ruined by unbelievable game tests. These dogs passed their tests, but they were never near as good after the tests as they were before it. I have noticed in rolls and matches, that dogs usually got hurt when they could no longer fight back. As long as they were able to push for a hold they usually didn't get hurt too bad, even when they were badly outfought. But, when a dog could only lay there and take it, the other dog could push into the bites and shake out his holds. It's like the boxer that's been stunned by a hard punch and can't keep his hands up to block or punch back. The other boxer can now hit him clean and with full force. The hurt fighter cannot block the punches or roll with them, so he takes it full force, blow after blow and can be seriously hurt.

    It's the same thing with a dog that's too tired to fight back, he can be badly injured. Watch the game test closely and if your dog gets so tired that he can't fight back, you should stop it right then. Scratch your dog and call it a day. If you are an inexperienced dogman and have a more experienced dogman helping you to test your dog, then make sure that he has your best interests in mind. After all, he didn't buy you dog or raise it from a pup. He has nothing invested in your dog, and unless he is really your friend, it's nothing to him if your dog is ruined.

    When I was first starting in the dog game, I had a so-called friend 'help' me test my dogs. This man had much more experience than I did, so I listened to his advice. Every time I tested a dog, he would tell me to roll it harder or to bring in a second dog on the one I was testing. Even when I was satisfied that the dog I was testing was game, he would try and get me to keep the test going. Then it dawned on me, that when this man tested his own dogs, he didn't roll them for that long or that hard. It was only when MY dogs were tested, that he encouraged such long. hard tests. He was not my friend and he only wanted me to ruin my own dogs, so that he could sell me some of his own 'game' dogs.

    I believe that some of the game tests suggested by some well known books are far too hard. The Armitage book "Thirty Years with Fighting Dogs" has a severe game test that Mr Armitage recommends. He says you should use two rough, hard-biting dogs, much larger than your own dog. He says to roll your dog for twenty minutes with the first big, rough dog and then immediately put the second dog on him for another twenty minutes. He says that if your dog will scratch after that, then he's worth a bet. I agree that a dog which lived through that and scratched, would be worth a bet, if you ever got him healed up. If you tried that Armitage test with todays dogs, you'll kill the dog you're testing more often than not.

    I have seen two dogs used to test one dog many times. I personally don't think it's a good idea. If your dog has been fighting with the first for twenty minutes or more, he will usually be too tired to stay with a fresh dog. The second dog will give him a beating much worse than he would take in a match. He only has to fight one dog for money, so why use two dogs for a test? Some dogs that would be dead game to one dog will get confused and quit against a number of different dogs in a row. If you pick the right opponent for your dog to roll with, then one dog is all it takes to test your dog. Test your dog once only to your satisfaction. Many times I have seen dog men roll their dogs very hard. When the roll is over, they think that he's game, but they're still not sure. So two or three months later they roll him hard all over again. I've heard of some dogs being tested four or five times over. This is crazy! Test your dog one time only and never test him again. A game test is harder on a dog than are most matches. The dogs that are tested four times could have won four matches, but by the time his stupid owner finally gets up the courage to match him, He's all used up from game tests and his chances of winning are decreased.

    Test your dog the same way, regardless of their breeding. Many dog men will test a dog to within an inch of its life, if it's breeding is different to their main line. They 'baby' the dogs of their own bloodlines and look the other way or make excuses if they look bad. School them all correctly, give them all a reasonably hard test and let the chips fall where they may. A well known dog man is famous for the insane game tests he puts dogs of other bloodlines through. He is out to stop the dog and prove that this line is not as good as his 'family' line. He rolls the dog he wants to stop very hard and then the next day, when the dog is still too sore and swollen to get out of his doghouse, rolls him hard again. He continues to roll the dog hard everyday, until it quits and then says he knew it was a cur all the time. This only proves that any fool can quit any dog that has hair on it, if that's what he wants to do. This guys own bloodline, his family, are not game dogs, but he babies them in their rolls. His dogs wouldn't take 1/10th of the punishment he hands out to dogs of other bloodlines. Some dog men, although not as extreme as this guy. do tend to test other lines much harder than their own.

    I believe many dog men flat out lie about how hard they test their own dogs. After all, you weren't there when they tested their dogs so you have to take their word for it. If one dog man is saying he rolled his dog into a five pound bigger dog for thirty minutes, then the next dog man has to top him. He says he rolled his dog with a ten pound bigger dog for an hour. Then another dog man comes along with the story of using three different dogs on his dog for an hour and thirty minutes. The harder the game tests are in these stories (lies), the gamer it's supposed to make their dogs look.

    Many times I hear of a dog that has been through an unbelievable game test, never made a bad move and scratched like a rocket. This dog has been with three or four rough ones, off the chain for almost two hours. Then this same dog is matched and he quits in less than an hour after taking very little punishment. How could this happen? Simple! The dog was never tested that hard. The game test was a Bulls**t story. I have been at some game tests and seen what really happened and then heard about the same test some time later. The test that I hear about is absolutely nothing like the test I witnessed.

    Let's say a guy is testing his dog with his fellow dog men and drinking buddies. They're all a bit high, but they check their watches when they start the test. The dog rolls with the first dog for maybe fifteen minutes. Then, to make the test a real good one, he has one of his friends go home and get another dog. It takes twenty minutes to get back with the second dog, during which time his own dog has had a good rest. Then he rolls his dog into the second dog for ten minutes and his dog scratches. Then to make sure that no-one can doubt his dogs gameness, he has another friend go and get a third dog. It takes another twenty-five minutes for this third dog to get back. His dog goes another five minutes against the third dog and scratches again. The owner checks his watch and sees that one hour and ten minutes has passed. "WOW"!! he says. Over an hour and ten minutes with three dogs in a row; can anybody doubt the gameness of his dog? He has taken a rather mild test and turned it into something it was not. His dog never went anymore than fifteen minutes with any one dog and got plenty of rest between each new dog. So!, don't believe everything you hear about how game dogs are tested. Most of it is Bull. If you roll a lean, healthy dog off the chain into a slightly bigger dog for thirty to forty minutes, you should know plenty about his gameness, if you know what to look for. If you are careful, you can learn about his gameness without taking too much out of him. Then you can match a fresh dog with all his teeth.

    Many of the dogs from my yard have proven their gameness for my customers in two, three and four hour matches. I have never found it necessary to roll a dog for more than forty-five minutes or to use more than one dog against him. If you plan to test a dog that's over six years old, please remember that they can't be tested as hard as a youngster without putting their health in danger.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2008
  16. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    These posts makes it painfully obvious you know absolutely nothing about what you are trying to talk about.

    If you used punctuation, your posts might be readable.
  17. Rai_77

    Rai_77 Good Dog

    Sounds like you know where to get a "game-ass" dog. Might want to keep that to yourself, and if you really do know people that are "still serious", I'm sure they would seriously make sure you couldn't post this kind of crap anymore if they knew what you were running off at the mouth about.
  18. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    Great posts be SE as usual... the other 2 knuckleheads seem like trolls/posers to me..just my opinion.
  19. Grizzly

    Grizzly Little Dog

    What in the hell are you talking about??
  20. Grizzly

    Grizzly Little Dog

    I'll say it again, what in the hell are you talking about? Are you just acting stupid or are you for real?

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