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Seven Sins APBTs vs. Caragan Kennels: The Truth

Discussion in 'General Dog Discussions' started by NobodyHere, Dec 19, 2015.

  1. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    so...you keep the registration of the pups until the dog is proven as a pet/breeding prospect, in order to ensure the owners dont breed the dogs willy-nilly?
  2. CarolineP

    CarolineP Little Dog

    I know you and I have not gotten along but this really boiled my blood for you. So sorry you had to go through that.
  3. NobodyHere

    NobodyHere Guest

    Basically, yes. Even after they've proven themselves, there are and will always be restrictive covenants in place that limit when and how the dog is bred, but yes, you're correct. Some people would say "well then you really don't own the dog then." You do own the dog. You still own your house while you're under the restrictive covenants of an HOA, too (though some people choose to not live in an area with an HOA, it's their personal choice and I'm all for the freedom of having choices). I'm personally of the firm belief that no dog contract should ever be one-sided, and that they should always equally protect the breeder, the buyer, and the dog. But contracts can contain just about anything that doesn't require someone to do something illegal. It ultimately comes down to what is agreed to, and the ethics of the person(s) whose contract you're under.

    Hell, if anyone is curious, this is ours (assuming anyone can even read it, FB likes to destroy image size and quality): https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1110894652284517.1073741846.696272237080096
  4. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    thanks for explaining and sharing!
  5. CrazyK9

    CrazyK9 Good Dog

    That is a detailed contract o.o
    Im sole owner of my dog on all of her paperwork so if I turned out to be a shitty person, everything would fall back on our contract. That's scary to me, through the eyes of the breeder. I can see why the need for keeping the breeders name on paperwork as having rights to the dog. Per my breeders contract, if I want to breed, I have to submit a written request with proof of required health testing for our breed and get the stud approved by her or otherwise she can take the dog back. There's also a bit about if she is suspect about the dogs health or care, she needs written proof from an agreed upon vet saying she's in acceptable condition. If anything is wrong due to my care, she can take the dog back. But obviously if it came down to her taking me to court, there's a lot of expense involved and if I decided to be a bitch I could drag things out as long as possible like Cheryl did. Not that I would ever do that but you never really know a person or how they're going to be until this kind of stuff happens :/

    Ive already thought about breeding down the road (assuming she continues to excellent at everything she does and her health testing comes back normal) but this is the kind of stuff that scares the crap out of me! People can be such shit bags. I would find it terribly difficult to not micromanage puppy buyers, yet from a buyer perspective, I hate that sort of thing. I have a feeling with my standards, I would never sell a puppy! Lol
  6. NobodyHere

    NobodyHere Guest

    I'm actually getting a kick out of the spin doctoring they're both flailing about with now in order to appeal to the furmoms and herdbeasts. Snippets of old private conversations with no context attached, partial-but-not-quite truths, exaggerations. A single full truth -- we are very much pro-cull and absolutely would have culled out an entire litter of unregistered puppies rather than give up Spike and then be forced into a shitty situation due to someone else's unethical tactics.

    Repeating "I have proof everything they said is a lie!" as if repeating that line in lieu of actually providing said proof IS proof in and of itself (and why didn't they bring all of this supposed documentation to Court?). Posting that Jiggles was examined by a cardiologist who apparently says that nothing is wrong with her at all (then why didn't you post documentation of that instead of bragging about the GP who only found a "sinus arrhythmia?").

    But I think this is my favorite one, if for no other reason than this person doesn't even realize she said too much. :no2:

  7. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl Little Dog

    Well that answered my earlier question, crap.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  8. catchrcall

    catchrcall Good Dog Staff Member

    Dogs can cause a nut roll for sure. Sorry all this had to happen SS.
  9. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    I think these kinds of co-ownerships/contracts have their place and I can totally understand why someone does it. But, yes, you are right, they CAN lead to all kinds of bad feelings and worse.

    I would say just enter into them with care, and hopefully be on more than buyer/seller terms with your breeder.
  10. catchrcall

    catchrcall Good Dog Staff Member

    In fact, I have a similar deal worked out with my hunting partner. When the father of most of my dogs came up for sale, I didn't have room on my yard for another dog. My hunting partner was looking for a good strike dog. I helped with a small part of the cost of the dog, he keeps it, feeds it, takes care of it, but I get to breed to him next time I'm ready. Simple arrangement, worked out over a cup of coffee and a handshake that in theory could lead to something like what happened to SS. I would only do it with someone I trust like I trust him, and if it goes to crap, than I guess there's other sires out there. With me, there is significantly less money involved though.
  11. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    I think that's the key when doing co-ownerships and the like.
  12. catchrcall

    catchrcall Good Dog Staff Member

    Even then, sometimes it's just not enough. Things do change and unfortunately not always for the better. It's just how much risk are you willing to assume with this person.
  13. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl Little Dog

    I have a friend who had bought three Doberman from a breeder over several years, all co-owned, she showed in conformation, did IPO, obedience, rally, lure coursing, and co bred as well. She got her fourth and something went down, she ended up returning the dog, after having it for a few months and severing ties. It can be tricky even if you know them for years.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  14. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    I agree. I've had some close calls. In general, I don't recommend them -- especially to novices who really aren't familiar with what seems to them pretty harmless. Too often, they are only anxious to be associated with a "famous" breeder, and those are the ones I most often see backfire. Its really a case-by-case call as it depends on who is being dealt with on both sides.
  15. imjustjenna

    imjustjenna Little Dog

    I remember asking a few months ago (within this year) about them to you, and got a vague answer but was enough to answer my question... Now I get it. I have spent a lot of time recently on *other* breed forums trying to really get a good idea of what it was like to buy from a breeder and what to expect and what to look out for. This is awful. I really hope they don't try to breed Jiggles.

    I also saw what this Kasey person put on their facebook page. Claiming to have "proof" that "everything is a lie" except have not provided any such thing. I have learned enough to not believe everything you hear on the internet, but everything is proven right here with the court documents. I don't see how it could really be misconstrued any other way? "Yeah that's all a bunch of lies. lmao." Really just sounds like a 'bunch of lies' to me.
  16. Malik

    Malik Puppy Premium Member

    OMG, surprised to read that about Cheryl, I don't know the lady personally but I contacted her some years ago and was considering to buy a pup from her, the reason I am surprised of this is the way she talked about the dogs and all the passion. I was very close from buy a pup for $3000 from her and only thing that stopped me was I didn't want the dog to be neutered. I am not a breeder nor do I have plans to breed, but heck I was going to pay $3000 for that pup why should I get him missing.

    anyway glad to hear you have cleared your issue with her.
  17. fandt94

    fandt94 Little Dog Premium Member

    Wow....what a mess! Sorry so late posting, could not access the site for weeks. I'm glad that you got to keep Spike, but sorry you lost Jiggles to this fraud who gives two shits about her health. SS you always tell it like it is whether people like to hear/see it and I feel the majority rules when I say you care about the breed(s) above all else and that so many have learned a ton from you because I know I have. I am truly sorry you had to go through this mess especially because essentially you were also protecting the breed in not breeding Jiggles because of health issues. What a "cluster fuck" as someone else said.
  18. realpitbull

    realpitbull Puppy

    I just had to drop a comment here because so much of what the OP says rings so familiar to me. My friend got a dog from Caragan fairly recently with so many health issues (including hereditary). She's had problems from day one. Really sad.

    There are so many glowing reviews of Caragan online, I just think people need to know that they must be cautious no matter what the Internet is telling them about a breeder, period. Buyer beware, for sure.

    Sorry Seven Sins/Elissa had to go through what they did. Kudos for doing the right thing and standing by your principals and doing right by the dogs. You are to be applauded.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2016

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