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Resisting the urge to say "game-bred"

Discussion in 'Today's APBT' started by xgarrettxvx, Oct 25, 2009.

  1. Fieldmarshal

    Fieldmarshal Big Dog

    What is the purpose of any sport? Other than the competitors themselves, aren't all sports entertainment?
  2. jamminbce

    jamminbce Puppy

    It doesnt make them less ,just doesnt make them a APBT. tHOSE TWO THINGS GO HAND IN HAND.
  3. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    That is the old martial arts outlook and it was ridiculous.....if you dont want to hurt your opponent then choose a different sport......your main aim in any fighting contest should be to do as much damage as possible and to think anything different is just a dangerous compromise.

    As for what idiots want to shout out from ringside or pitside is up to them you get disrespectful idiots in all walks of life not just fight sports !

    ---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------

    Absolutely YES of course it makes them less of an APBT......would a slow greyhound be any less of a greyhound ? of course it would.......any purpose bred animal that cannot perform the tasks for which it was bred is a poor representative of its breed.

    whether the animal today still performs those tasks is a different matter....but still....a greyhound that wont run,a retriever that wont retrieve or a fighting dog that wont fight.....should all be looked upon as poor examples of their breed.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2009
  4. Pitlove

    Pitlove Big Dog

    How does that have anything to do with TMA?? The actual philosophy in most traditional martial arts is that it is used as self defense only if you get into a very traditional school they look down on any kind of competition.
    I never said I didnt want to hurt the opponent but that is not the goal of it.

    I dont know anyone that I train with that fights just to hurt the other person thats alot of trouble to go through just cause someone else bodily harm. If you have ever trained you know its more about testing yourself because when it comes right down to it the training is the hard part and the fight is your reward at the end.
  5. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    i feel no need to big myself up in any way needless to say i will just say yes i have competed at a decent level..... the philosophy you have is the polite philosophy.....the reality is that getting punched in the face hard enough to knock you out.....or having your arm broken is no fun and it hurts !!:D.....if during a bout you are not trying to hurt your opponent then you shouldnt be in the ring as you can bet your opponent is trying all out to hurt you !....training is just training......competetion is not just about technique it is about peaking your mind and body for 1 day.....everything must come together for that 1 day......often an early knockout is the rewarding yet frustrating part of dedicated preparation......that knockout would not have come if you didnt want to hurt your opponent.
    its worth remembering....a points win is a judges " opinion "....a knockout is final !.....i dont know anyone who can knock somebody out without trying to hurt them as much as physically possible.
  6. Tiffseagles

    Tiffseagles GRCH Dog Premium Member

    So, does a dog have to have proven parents to be considered game bred or can they have a game dog(s) 3 generations back and be considered game bred? If it is the first option, then yeah, I'd say refrain from using the term since it is illegal in this country whether or not you agree with it being so. If your using it saying that your dog has ancestors that won matches before it was illegal........... go ahead.
  7. Laced Wit Game

    Laced Wit Game Good Dog

    so lemme get this straight...................you ate a cat?? do you live in cambodia or sumthin?
  8. Pitlove

    Pitlove Big Dog

    I was actually refering to the breed of cougar that frequents dive bars in search of younger prey....
  9. Laced Wit Game

    Laced Wit Game Good Dog

    oh yea i like those too! lol

  10. My opinion on this is..

    If they went 2 generations in a row without game-testing, They are NOT game-bred!!! "Game-bred" is just that, being bred with a strict focus on gameness (not roughness, not bite) GAMENESS.

    And like them old-school breeder's would say: pretty pedigrees be damned..

    The first 3 generations tell the tale. After that, the pedigree is used as a tool, not an excuse. It can help guide your potential breeding strategies, but that's it. Too many people let a pedigree blind them to the truth.

    If the dog has a impressive pedigree but it's not a good representative of it's parents and grand-parents, it's excusable to call it "brood" and take your chances in the puppy pen. But then, as Mayfield liked to say, you have to ""SEEK THE TRUTH"...

    And not just within the dogs, but in the breeder.

    ---------- Post added at 08:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

    My bad.. You asked a simple question and I went on a tangent about breeding theory.

    GAME-BRED=1/2 the dogs in the first 3 gen's. should be proven..
  11. Zoe

    Zoe GRCH Dog

    I'll sometimes refer to Scarling as ''being down from game lines'' to those that aren't ignorant to the breed, but on the whole, I just say she's an APBT, and registered with the ADBA if it goes that far. Most people I run into that ask about her wouldn't even know what the ADBA was anyway so often "pit bull" will do. I would NEVER refer to her as ''game bred'' or ''game'' though as she's not either as far as I know.

    ---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

    The purpose it serves IMO is to produce quality dogs that can be used for MANY things besides fighting, but once you take away the tool to test the breeding stock, their quality will dwindle and they won't even be good for all the things we love about them outside the ring. Just look at what is going on with the ''generic'' pit bull population. Bad health, bad temperment, no drive, loss of athletism. All the things that are required in the pit, makes the breed what it is outside the pit. How can you produce and mantain quality dogs with no tool to test them for what they are supposed to be?
  12. Tiffseagles

    Tiffseagles GRCH Dog Premium Member

    Why not only breed dogs who pass health testing, who excel not just in one but multiple areas including but not limited to agility, weight pull, hog hunting, therapy, S&R, etc.

    Ex. I would think a dog involved in S&R, weight pull, and agility would need to have good stamina, drive, strength, agility and a solid temperament; all qualities I associate with a good APBT. They couldn't be too muscle bound or they wouldn't succeed in agility and they can't be too lanky or they'll lose in weight pull. Without some sort of drive, great stamina, and solid temperament they couldn't do S&R. It's not about using one activity to replace dog fighting, it's about using multiple avenues to test for the similar attributes. Just a thought..........
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2009
  13. jamminbce

    jamminbce Puppy

    You dont even have to go that far I refer to my girl as down from working dogs. Her parents job is anybodys guess.Im quite sure she'll be a nice bulldog.

    ---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 AM ----------

    Its a diff. breed that produced. its been said before 3 gen. of not testing and you've got german shepards. Its like buying pirahna and they dont eat fish they eat algae of the side of the tank.
  14. Tiffseagles

    Tiffseagles GRCH Dog Premium Member

    I'm kind of thinking of it in this perspective. If I have two GSDs and both are conformation champs, but one excells at schutzund and the other at herding, which is the better GSD?

    If gameness can only be seen in the pit, you have no way of telling whether or not your dog is game unless you match it, correct?

    So, if I had a dog who acted and looked exactly like a certain Gr. Ch. outside of the pit but I did not know whether or not he was game (or maybe I knew he wasn't game), how is he so far off that Gr. Ch. if they are different in only one aspect of their existence?

    Conformation shouldn't be the main emphasis because yes, that will lead to a different breed (kind of like how American GSDs and German GSDs look very different) but if you are emphasizing a group of activities that combined can test for the majority of things needed to be succesful in the pit, than it is just like breeding a quick winner. You don't know if they are game, but all of the other qualities are there to make them a succesful pit dog (strength, agility, stamine, drive, size, etc.).

    If being game means scratching back even though it's clear you've lost, then the only way to really know if a dog is game is if it scratches back when it is dying because, unless this is true, there will always be a small chance that the dog will at some point stop scratching before it has lost. Just like we say never depend on a dog to protect you becaue no matter how good of a show they put on, you don't know if they will or not, you should never assume a dog is game unless it has died proving it. Then if the dog does prove it is game, the dog can't be bred afterward because it is dead.

    And a dog that is winning all of its matches in under 0:30 is not proving that it is game, just that it can finish quickly so these dogs shouldn't be bred because they haven't proven they are game, which is the quality that is suppose to be selected for.
  15. jamminbce

    jamminbce Puppy

    Gameness is a intangible its not anything in the show ring or weightpull. Its fight or flight.I'm of the belief that any dog would quit given the right circumstances. It just makes sense they're not robots.

    For the 30 min winner Im sure that owner schooled that dog and has an idea whether the dog can go longer.

    I don't believe a dog would have to be dieing to prove game thats dead game and for breeding thats useless.
  16. Lowlife

    Lowlife Big Dog

    Because that "one aspect" is what makes a "pit bull" different from other breeds. You can go get any other breed of dog to do all of those other things.
  17. Tiffseagles

    Tiffseagles GRCH Dog Premium Member

    Surely it's more than fight or flight, otherwise any dog that chose to fight for any period of time would be game. It seems like there are many different definitions and if anyone has a generally accepted definition, please post.

    Ex. If a dog is only willing to go for 2 minutes before it gives up, it is not game. However, if a dog will go for 2 hours, it would be considered game. Both dogs chose to fight but because of how long they chose to do so, one is considered game, one is not. Please correct me if this is wrong. What would be the cutoff for a dog to prove it's game?

    If the reason to roll/match a dog is to prove it is game and preserve the breed in its original form, than I would think that dead game dogs would be the ideal since it would show they are game until the end. So if gameness is what is so admired and a dead game dog is always game than that is what should be strived for.

    ---------- Post added at 08:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

    A breed is more than just one trait. It is a unique collection of traits that together make a breed different from any other. If you say a breed is that breed because of one trait, than any dog possessing that trait could fairly be labeled as a dog of that breed (ex. any dog that would herd I could call a Border Collie).

    If gameness is genetic (which is what is being suggested since it can be bred for) than it is almost certain that dogs of other breeds possess this same trait. It would be foolish to assume that this mutation has not occured in other breeds. So if I found a game JRT, should I call it an APBT?

    Also, if it is genetic than there is a very high chance that it is linked to other genes or markers. If we identify and breed for those linked genes, we can conserve gameness without necessarily needing to test for it in every generation (the frequncey of testing would depend on the recombination frequency). I'm not an expert so school me if I'm wrong. This is just another way to look at it.......
  18. Laced Wit Game

    Laced Wit Game Good Dog

    you show me a game bred jack russel & ill personally give you $100!

    ---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

    there arent any other breeds that possess this trait, this is what gives the APBT its "essence".
  19. Lowlife

    Lowlife Big Dog

    You can make it as diffucult as you want, "PIT bulls" are bred as fighting dogs. If you take the PIT out you don't have a "PIT bull" anymore. Period. All the traits that make a "PIT bull" come from breeding the best to the best. If you want to breed for something else don't call it a "PIT bull".
  20. woody d

    woody d Big Dog

    what you dont understand Tiff, is that a "real" dogman doesnt let a game dog die...pickin your dog up when he/she doesnt know any better, and is gonna get himself killed is part of the game

    ---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

    do ya follow?

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