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Preservation of the breed

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by buddysmom, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    OK so this is a combination question and debate thread.

    The masthead of this forum states:

    "Promoting the Preservation of the Breeds by Means of Education"
    (Hey is the plural on Breeds a typo?)

    Anyway the questions all have to do with "Preserving the breed," how does this work? And what I want to talk about is only the breeding aspect.

    (Education is most important because the number one threat to the breed is BSL which stems from ignorance. Responsiible rescue is also critical because there are so many unwanted pit bulls in shelters etc. and if they are placed poorly, see no. 1 ... also as long as so many are suffering we can't say the breed is being successfully preserved.)

    But another part of "preserving the breed" (as with any breed) is responsible breeding.

    So what does that mean? Both in a historical context but much more importantly, moving into the future?

    For example, we know "gameness" has historically been the most desirable trait in a pit bull. Is it still, or does it need to be? And if so how can this trait be preserved in ways that are legal?

    I have been informed today that dog aggression has also been deliberately bred into the pit bulls. Did / do the true dogmen really do this? And if so, is it also something tthat should be continued to "preserve the breed?"

    Here is a much quoted "Breeder's Code of Ethics." Do you agree with it? Why, why not?

    http://www.realpitbull.com/BCOE.pdf


    Thanks in advance everyone!
     
  2. Shon

    Shon Little Dog

    I'm not going to comment to this much just yet, as time is limited, but I will to a few things... ;)
    No, the plural, "Breeds," is not a typo. A "pit bull" is a label, applied generically to any dog one perceives as dangerous (especially with the media coverage "they" get) or having the characteristics they believe a "pit bull" should have. By the word "breeds," that simply means, mostly, the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier along with many other breeds and mix breeds between them. Check out the about us page. :)
    I really hate to disagree with this, but "dog aggression," in its self, was never specifically bred for in any breed of dog. I believe dog aggression, in most dogs, to be a subset of the task the breed (many breeds) was bred to accomplish; dog aggression is also apparent in many terrier breeds.
     
  3. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    i'll try to explain to you how i feel DA has been bred into the breed. x dogman has a had mouthed willing dog that will hit anything it has a chance to. x dogman also has a game proven dog that just doesn't have the ability to win but would die trying. x dogman breed hard mouthed DA dog to game proven less ability dog to try and acquire all the traits. does it work? that is for x dogman to decide as he will keep all or place a couple with friends who would keep him well informed to their progress.

    now, to understand why DA was bred into the breed you would have to understand the rules of old time matching. dogs were NEVER EVER EVER forced to fight. anyone who tells you so is misguided and misinformed. after a timed round dogs took turns scratching. which easily explained=took turns engaging the other dog to see if the fight would continue. if one did not engage then said match was over. so DA was a necessary part of the breed as without it when a fight was stopped after a timed round most animals would not continue.
     
  4. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    without gameness, there is no apbt....IMO......they go hand in hand
     
  5. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Then all pit bulls have gameness, Michele?

    To some degree anyway?

    Here's an idea: Every registered thoroughbred horse must be able to trace it's heritage back to one of three studs. Could the same be done with the APBT? To say in order to breed and register your litter as pit bulls, that every one bred from here on can trace some blood back to one of the half dozen, dozen or so "game" lines like Eli, Chinaman etc?
     
  6. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    not all "turn on".......
     
  7. Shon

    Shon Little Dog

    As I have said in this thread, "A 'pit bull' is a label, applied generically to any dog one perceives as dangerous (especially with the media coverage 'they' get) or having the characteristics they believe a 'pit bull' should have" and an APBT is a breed of dog. No, not all "pit bulls" or even APBTs have any "degree" of "gameness." Gameness would be best described as "the willingness to continue under all adversities" and can not be tested for because the only way to test for it is illegal (within the United States). And, I can not really agree with "without gameness, there is no apbt....IMO......they go hand in hand," although it is an opinion, truly "game" dogs were always few and far between.
    Not really sure I follow the idea of "to one of three studs," but I have extremely strong opinions of registries registering "pit bulls" as American Pit Bull Terriers. Although I can't specifically comment on "'game' lines like Eli, Chinaman etc," I could say that it would be nice for registries to require at least a majority of 10 generations to be proven "American Pit Bull Terriers," or otherwise register them as something totally different, without the mention of "pit bull."
     
  8. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    Good post Shon......:)

    but isn't that part of this breed?
     
  9. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    I am learning something new from you in this thread Shon ... i always thought before that APBT and "pit bull" were completely synonymous.

    Not sure what you don't get about the horses ... it's just a fact. There were three founder studs of all registered thoroughbred horses and you can't register one as a thoroughbred of it can not be traced back to at least one of the three. Pretty straightforward, that.
     
  10. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    Buddysmom: Shon is very very educated with regard to this breed..:)
     
  11. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Thats why when you read the way BSL is actually written it always says "pit bull type" that way they can cover everything.

    And Buddysmom you are not the only one that thinks Pit Bull is a breed. The general public also has this mentality. I am a Vet Tech and there are a few Vet Asst that I work with that also thought it too.

    And Buddys mom even though I do not agree with everything you write I do like the fact that you are not afraid to debate because someone comming to this site can learn alot from it. :)
     
  12. GHOST

    GHOST Puppy

    hmmmm lets see,,,

    i totally agree with shon,,, a true GAME DOG is hard to come by,,some will turn on defensively,, some will come on and quit ,,, and then ever once and a while you'll get a special one that loves to come alive and won't stop no matter what,, its something you'd really have to know but if you have one you'll know it...without a doubt,,, it's almost like what they honestly love to do,,, a terminater so to speak,,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2007
  13. Shon

    Shon Little Dog

    It is, or at least was... APBTs were originally, since they became "(American) Pit Bull Terriers," bred for their gameness, although in latter years, were bred to simply "win" for the money involved with it (in my opinion). But APBTs do not define gameness, it defines its self. :)

    I don't understand that, because I don't know the first thing about horses. Dogs came from many different studs (sires) and dams, although I'm not sure how that is relevant. There are not limited amounts of dogs that a dog must be a descendant of to be considered an APBT, as there are WAY more than horses (as I assume by that statement). But I don't believe even 1\16th of the dogs registered as an "American Pit Bull Terrier" should hold that status.

    I wouldn't say that at all... I'm simply a poster responding to posts. :)

    I agree, to the fullest. :)
     
  14. Miakoda

    Miakoda GRCH Dog

    Wonderful, wonderful post. In fact, one of the best I've read in a while.;)
     
  15. Miakoda

    Miakoda GRCH Dog

    As for horses, she is speaking in terms of the Darley Arabian, the Godolphin Arabian, & the Burley Turk. ;)
     
  16. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Thanks! I couldn't think of any of the names.

    I also agree with your post above (about Shon's post) ... I really learned something new there. That doesn't happen every day. :)
     
  17. blinky tears

    blinky tears Puppy

    I can tell ya from my experience with these sporting dogs that the best resembles everything from greyhound like types to english buldoggy shapes,they were the best at their weight,the essentials of a combatdag has nothing to do with shape or form or outward appearence but the average breeder dont understand that and they are breeding for pretty looking dogs selling puppys to streetkids.if you really want to preserve the breed you have to focus on the inborn inherent traits this breed are famous for otherwise we end up with just a shell named Pittbull, Its oke i you like that but its a far cry from preserving the breed.
     
  18. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    Not only that, but the true dogmen/dogwomen that breed will keep it flowing and a lot will cull what isn't...thats part of preserving the breed as well. Pit bulls have always been dog aggressive, some more than others, just depends on what a breeder feels is worthy or not as to whether they are kept to produce or put down for lack of.
     
  19. LindsaySF

    LindsaySF Puppy

    Hear hear!


    I believe a pit bull should be courageous and fearless, driven and determined. But I don't think true gameness ('dead game' whatever) is necessary anymore, now that dogfighting is illegal.

    I do think that pit bulls should be titled in working events before breeding is even considered, as this was meant to be a working breed. Sports like weightpull are the closest way to preserve this drive and tenacity that we admire so much.


    DA is not something that defines the APBT IMO. A lot of breeds can be DA. I don't think one should try to breed it out (though I wouldn't be too upset to see less DA pit bulls out there), but no one should be trying to preserve it either. Unless you are fighting your dogs, DA does not serve a purpose. Other drives can be tapped into for work.





    ~Lindsay~
     

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