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Pitbull or AmBully, whats every1 take on a name?

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by NoV@89, Jun 2, 2012.

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  1. LilianaLove

    LilianaLove GRCH Dog

    You missed my point entirely. Let me re-quote what you deem contradictory: "... it matters where they actually came from. Lineage determines a dog's breed, not the registry with which they are registered."

    Let's look at the parts of this statement individually and then link them together.

    Part 1: "... it matters where they actually came from." In this statement, I am making the point (based on previously stated context) that a dog's breed is determined by where they came from.

    Part 2: "Lineage determines a dog's breed..." In this statement, I am making the point that a dog's breed is determined by their parents', grandparents', great-great grandparents' etc. breed.

    Part 3: "... not the registry with which they are registered." In context, a dog's breed is not determined by simply the specific registry; a registry is simply an organization that formally maintains documentation of pedigrees.

    Bringing it all together, if a dog came from phenotypical and genotypical dogs of a certain breed, that dog is to be considered that breed; registries register dog pedigrees. They are not magical entities that create new breeds simply by changing the names of them. Thus, a doberman pinscher registered as a chihuahua under a different registry is still a doberman pinscher.

    I see nothing contradictory at all about any of these statements and your argument for why my statements are contradictory lies with your misunderstanding of the purpose of my explanation.

    Many will argue that, because true ASTs were never crossed with any other breed, they are still considered APBTs. If this is where your confusion lies and where you believe I am contradicting myself, allow me to explain.

    In my definition of a dog breed, the dogs are bred for a specific purpose. Changing the purpose of a breed changes its physical conformation and, typically, its temperament as well. IMO, any time a breed's purpose is changed, it's name should reflect it; if enough time passes that this newly named breed consistently produces dogs like it, IMO, it is no longer the breed it once was. Before the AKC began registering APBTs as ASTs, APBTs were bred with one purpose in mind. The point of changing the name was in fact to change the purpose of the breed and its public perception. The point of the creation of the AST was not to simply change the name of the dog, it was to change the dog. That plan succeeded.

    No one here, with any knowledge, would argue that APBTs and ASTs are the same breed when looked at this way. In fact, and it is my very humble opinion to say so, no one here should argue that APBTs not currently being bred for their original purpose are, by definition, american PIT bull terriers. They may be american SHOW bull terriers, american TREADMILL bull terriers, american WEIGHTPULL bull terriers, but they are not american PIT bull terriers. In fact, the name american bull terrier may simply be the best way to describe these dogs at this point. The current game lines will be quickly diluted with over breeding and population saturation. IMO, the only way to breed an APBT is to breed it off a dog proven to perform its original task. That's not possible in this day and age in this country legally.

    Now, I'm no geneticist. I do not know how many generations out it would take to say, 'well, this is x generations separated, thus, not the same breed'. However, if I was making the definition, I would say that any dog more than 1 generation separated, meaning, any dog without first degree parents proven in the dog's original purpose, cannot, by definition, be that breed.

    I know this is a very unpopular opinion on this forum, but frankly, I don't care. Purists can sit here and tout their dog's pedigrees and I will continue not to care. Today's APBTs are not yesterday's APBTs and tomorrow's will be completely different. We're already seeing changes in the physical structure of these dogs based on judge preference at shows. The APBT, when originally bred for performance, did not adhere to a physical standard much the way it does now. This will continue to change with conformation being the deciding factor in a dog's breed-worthiness.

    The sad fact is that the APBT no longer has a purpose relevant to today's society. Those with APBTs that perform in other venues are utilizing the dog's innate drive and ability, but are not utilizing the dog for what it was bred to do. The APBT will never be what it once was, regardless of its spotless pedigree.

    Back to my point, when the APBT stopped being bred for performance and started being bred to adhere to a physical conformation standard, it no longer was an american PIT bull terrier. After almost a century of this, it's safe to say that today's ASTs are not mirror images of the breed's foundation dogs, with very few exceptions. Due to the separation of these two breeds based on purpose, it is clear that breeding an APBT to an AST would create a mix bred dog. While the American Bully is finding a foothold in today's society and is garnering its own registry, only time will tell how long it takes for the breed to stop being considered a mix bred dog and when it will begin to be considered a true breed that produces consistent offspring. As of right now, that has not happened. By my definition, calling an AST and APBT is like calling a dog a wolf, because that's where it came from. Eventually, there is enough separation that not only is there speciation, as in dogs and wolves, but there is also breed differentiation within the speciation. While ASTs were once APBTs, they no longer are. Thus, two different breeds that are bred together produce a mix bred dog; until that mix bred dog breed is bred enough to produce consistent dogs, it's just a mutt with a fancy name.

    Let's remember here, I don't own an APBT, AST, or AmBully. I own a street mutt, and a phenomenal one at that. But I hold no stake in this discussion other than my own humble opinion. I have no agenda and now ego to stroke. This is just how I define this situation in my own words.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2012
  2. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

    You tell 'em. Writing like that is a great way to get your point across. Good job!
  3. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    Joe, I owe you a beer
  4. While I do think that was a great post Liliana a lot of valid points I would have to argue that AST and APBT are the same breed, if the American pit bull terrier was originally bred to dog fight, and any well bred dog is not a part of that. It's only used in weight pulling, and agility/ obedience shows and the AST has the same uses then they wouldn't of changed enough over time to be considers a different breed, if they both started being used for different purposes then they would change independently but they haven't.

    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
  5. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    What an ignorant statement. Sorry APBTs don't typically look like they'll die for walking a mile. You're pretty much comparing the average body of a guy that practices kung fu over a guy who regularly competes in bodybuilding competitions.
    The APBT is a working breed, bred for stamina, drive, and gameness. The AmBully is bred to be a companion dog, not to work, and typically lacks the drive and body type to work. And even if they do have both of those (which is rare), AmBullies are noted for the severe lack of stamina they typically possess. There's no reason that an adult dog couldn't trot a mile without stopping to rest and/or looking like they're about to keel over, and I've yet to see more than 3 who could, as opposed to, y'know.....almost any other breed on the planet I can rattle off the top of my head.

    You do know that there are several styles of AmBully, right?
    Lol, that remains to be seen.
    No one's saying you shouldn't. As a matter of fact, I'm completely baffled as to why you;re so pissy about it.
    Fine with me. Most of the people nowadays owning APBTs sure as shit don't need to. Kinda sad that you're trying further promote AmBullies into popularity. Popularity damages a breed. Look at AmBullies right now, people are turning them into "English Bulldogs 2.0" by breeding the hell out of unhealthy dogs with terrible anatomy. You really want to promote AmBullies? Try pushing for mandatory hip and elbow tests before being allowed to breed. Goodness knows the breed desperately needs it. And show your dogs. I'd personally do a little jig if I saw more functional looking AmBullies being shown
    Because clearly, you're excelling in this matter yourself
    Methinks the lady doth protest too much
  6. LilianaLove

    LilianaLove GRCH Dog

    Honestly, I don't follow what you're saying. Both breeds have changed independently; I fail to see your point, but I'm open to further explanation to help me understand.
  7. What I'm try to get across is that since the name change, AST breaking away from APBT they have been used for the same purposes, shows and competitions so they have gone down the same path and the only difference you have is a name.

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  8. _unoriginal

    _unoriginal Cow Dog

    They're not being used for the same purposes. No one ever cared what an APBT looked like so long as it could do it's job well. The APBT is a working breed, bred for a job that it must excel at to be a good representation of the breed. The AST was bred for show/conformation purposes. As I recall, it was also bred in an attempt to remove some of the "less desired" behaviors such as dog aggression (which was bred INTO the APBT).
  9. LilianaLove

    LilianaLove GRCH Dog

    After the AKC accepted the AST into the registry, the two breeds began the separation. APBTs, for a long time after that, continued to be used for their original purpose while ASTs were bred to adhere to the AKC AST conformation standard. After half a century, the two were no longer the same breed. Regardless of their similar purposes now, that separation was the deciding factor in today's dogs. Just because two breeds are used for similar purposes, it does not mean the breeds are the same. There are groups in AKC and UKC, such as herding, gun dog, etc. These dogs were all bred for basically the same purpose. That does not make them the same breed. While they all herd, they all herd differently, with cattle dogs being used to herd cattle, border collies for sheep, etc. Simliar purposes, different physical structure and working tactics.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2012
  10. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Excellent well thought out and written post (top of the page) LilianaLove. You made some good points ... not necessarily do I agree 100% of course LOL ... EXCELLENT read nevertheless.

    DwC ... :cheers:

    ... okay ... back to the regularly scheduled don't hold your breath endless discussion , sports fans :lol: ...
  11. LilianaLove

    LilianaLove GRCH Dog

    :lol: Thanks. Like I said, probably a lot of unpopular ideas in there, but what the hell do I care, my street mutt and I will show our way out... :slap:
  12. alex123

    alex123 Big Dog

    You know im not gonna lie this post upset me! This guy seams a little NARCISSISTIC about his dogs, Thinking his dogs are more agile and can perform better then the APBT! To be honnest with you i cant see that big headed mutt shown in his avatar, Jumping an 8 foot fence! Thats something most APBT's can do easly! Hes comparing the American bully with the Apbt, Theirs no comparison against these two breeds their two totally different breeds! How does an American bully get more agile then an APBT can some one tell me that! Hell look at what the APBT was bred for then look at what the Am bully was bred for then tell me witch dog should be more agile! And is more agile! I have nothing against the American bully breed hell i own one!! But everybody has their own opinion, Everybody likes something different but in this case the APBT won! I think the APBT is more agile then the Am.bully and performs better in most sports well all sports, Think about it the APBT was the greastest fighting dog of all time it had to be agile in the pit and perform good! What made this guy sound like a complete idiot was the way this guy spelled his words! And just acted immature about everything! This post pissed me off!
  13. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    HA !!! Who's going to get over it first Alex ?? :lol: ... let it go. Most KNOW how laughable the statements are
  14. Yes, but Apbt and AST were the same dog unlike these herding dogs and dog fighting was made illegal in most states by the 1860's and the ukc dropped its support in the early 20th century when the AST broke off

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  15. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    O.H. M.Y. G.A.W.D. ... WAITER ... fact check please.
    ... nope ... not going to leave a "tip" on this one folks HA !!!
  16. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    The APBT has and will always be used for other purposes. At the end of the day, the AmStaff was bred for show and the APBT was bred for go. Where they once the same dog? Sure. But not anymore and they haven't been for a long time. You can blame the AKC's need to show everything into the ground combined with it's closed studbooks
  17. off dog fighting was mostly gone except for underground shady outlaws who are the same people who give the dog a bad name today, but that just proves that when the AST broke off the APBT had no purpose thus was used for the same purposes as the AST, shows and competitions, so with no different purpose I see no reason why they would branch off as a different breed other than the fact that the AKC didn't want to be associated with such a negative image as dog fighting

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  18. Kamdon

    Kamdon GRCH Dog

    The breeds have been separated for so long now, that they don't even LOOK alike. And before you say they do, THEY DONT
  19. LilianaLove

    LilianaLove GRCH Dog

    Here is a mostly comprehensive list of herding breeds (compiled thanks to wikipedia). I'd like you to thoroughly research each of these breeds and find where they are completely different dogs without any common ancestral links.

    Here's the link for more information: Herding dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  20. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    Sorry, but no. There are still working APBTs, and they aren't a rare sight either. The main purpose of the APBT is/was dogfighting, but it has always been an extremely capable multi-purpose breed.
    First of all, dogfighting isn't illegal everywhere. There are still fighting APBTs in lineages all over the world. Not to mention the many working and working bred APBTs. The AST is an offshoot of the APBT developed for showing, and nothing else. The APBT was developed for work, and if I have to choose between the two breeds for work, I'm going with the one that was bred to and excels at y'know...work. It's really that simple
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