Pit Bull Chat Forum

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PIT BULL CHAT, GAME DOG FORUM AND APBT DOG FIGHTS...

pitbulldogs

OHMUHGERD
Staff member
That certainly wouldn't be a problem for me but if the dog is DA, that is not a problem for me either :) I knew when buying this breed that DA is likely, didn't change the fact that i wanted a real APBT, it is something you prepare for. I honestly don't think you could ever fully breed out DA in a dog, other things would have too go with it or new things might arise because of it. We have plenty of breeds that aren't APBT that still share many traits, such as Am Bulls for example, he is everything you want without the DA so that in itself is good for someone who is worried about DA. Like i said before, APBT's aren't for everyone and thats ok :) Just like Dobies, Malinois or Rots aren't for everyone, or other working breeds.

BTW, i didn't take it as argumentative, nothing wrong with a nice discussion on matters. Opinions will vary but being able to discuss it is what these boards are for ;)
 

TWadeJ

Big Dog
Fair enough. This is the only dog related forum I enjoy and I don't want to piss off an "administrator"... at least not too much! :)

I have zero doubts that you are a capable APBT owner who will not put humans or animals at risk. But you are the minority my friend. Most people are complete morons. I consider myself a relatively smart fellow but found myself initially in over my head between receiving HORRIBLE, NEGLIGENT advice from an APBT specific, nationally known rescue and not doing my homework beforehand. Despite Sugar coming from a fighting set up in South Texas, I was told she was "gentle" and that there would be no problems between her and my alpha female Canaan dog Jasmine. Morons! Myself included. Normally, I research out the wazoo before making a major life decision. We went to adopt a puppy they had but then they realized they had a sucker on their hand and brought out Sugar.

Poor girl was so broken. She would only belly crawl and peed all over herself. She was scared of everyone and everything. The rescue had her over a year already. I figured that if I didn't save the poor girl, no one would. With the right household, much love and a pure positive training regimen within 6 months or so Sugar had her tail up, was loud and proud and ready to contend for Alpha status... Until then, Sugar and Jasmine played like puppies. One day, a dog along a fence line got Sugar and Jasmine hyper excited and Sugar and Jasmine broke into a fight. Me, being ignorant and unprepared at the time, naturally reached down to try to pull my two 40 to 50 "babies" apart. My left hand ended up in the middle of the melee and now my left thumb is useless. Bones all fused, both nerves completely severed.

Fortunately I am right handed but it is shocking what I can no longer do. I can no longer work on my Porsche which was my favorite pastime - at least not like I could before. When you can't feel you can't manipulate or twist if you can't see working under a car. It sucks. One of my law school buddies is one of those scum bag ambulance chasers but he is DAMN good at it. He was comfortable he could win me $100k. I chose not to even make a financial demand. Why? 1. More horrible press for this breed which if it continues as is will end up with it being illegal to own in most states. 2. I was at least as equally culpable in MY OPINION (although I know I could convince a jury otherwise).

Again, why in the hell does a dog need to be dog aggressive???? :)

For some reason I don't have a picture of Jasmine with her cone after surgery but she looked worse than either Sugar or me. Pits have NASTY bites!!!WadesThumb.jpgSugar.jpgJasmine.jpgSugarCone.jpg
 

TWadeJ

Big Dog
On a side note, is that a recent photo of Blue? He is soooo handsome! Love his shiny coat! It glistens even when it's dark. What a sweetie pie.

About 6 weeks ago. Thank you. I don't know why it is called blue instead of silver. I actually named him "Blue" as a joke about the naming system for $$$.
 

TWadeJ

Big Dog
Pitbulldogs - do you guys share first names or prefer to remain anonymous? Regardless, my name is obviously Wade.
Is this the post you were referring to? http://www.game-dog.com/index.php?threads/bulldogs-that-can-socialize-together.62024/
Amazing difference between the two sites. It is like two totally different breeds are often being discussed. Personally, a GD APBT would be too much for me.
Interesting read, I appreciate the heads up.
 

Capt. Roxy

Good Dog
Premium Member
Oh man! I had just left a comment on the Caesar thread wondering how the dogs were after the fight. WOW....
I too like you love everything about the bully breed minus the dog aggression part. If I had it my way I would rather the dog not be aggressive towards other dogs but if it happens, I will still love them and knowing it could happen to any one of them I still adore and love them. I do mean all the "pitbulls" out there under the umbrella term. All the way from Bull terriers to Amstaffs, to Staffs, to the real APBTs. Cane Corsos, Dogos, all of them! Shoot, I'll just go ahead and name every single big dog... LOL, I love them all. I think I have a problem. I'm like the crazy cat lady but dog version. :biggrin:
I think you should post this thread on the GD site. They know more about what a "game dog" is and isn't, reasons for specific breeding, game dog history, and all that jazz. I think most active members on this forum, minus a handful, mostly have rescues and love for the breed but have them more so as an active member of the family rather than a hunting buddy. Most of us don't compete in shows or anything like that. We usually work out our dogs but not to achieve Bruce Lee looking SUPER FIT dogs but more so to just stay fit overall. Not that there is anything wrong with Bruce Lee dogs out there. I have loads of respect for those dogs and their handlers because it takes such dedication and determination to get there. Honestly, it is such a shame when you see a great sporting/working dog who is obese.... That just breaks my heart! It is an epidemic I tell you! In my town alone I've only met 1 fit dog! I love working out with my dog but at the same time I don't need her to look like female Bruce Lee. I don't plan on ever showing or competing either but I would one day love to have a working dog who I can really work out with. I'm out there 2-3x a week pulling tires and run 6-10 miles a day 6 days a week. I am very focused on cardio/strength for myself so to be able to do that with my dog is a huge plus for me. If she cannot, that's no big deal either. Roxy runs in the yard and plays after our cardio while I pull. She's been pretending to pull lately though. She was so insistent on walking next to me while I do what I need to do that now she wears a regular walking hardness with stuffed toy with bells attached to it and walks at my pace next to me. LOL - it is the cutest thing ever... That is the loyalty I'm talking about. She wants to make sure I'm okay I guess that's why she does it? I have no clue... I don't make the nicest sounds sometimes as I pull I think that's what worries her sometimes. Okay, I'm rambling I've had a bit of Scotch.
 

TWadeJ

Big Dog
I will post it on the GD site at your request...

Get ready to see fireworks and a bunch of insults being hurled at me!!!
 

BookGal13

Little Dog
Do you guys believe their is still a need for dog aggression? Put differently, I suspect that an exceptional breeder could, over time, breed in gameness as defined by Michele but without the dog aggression.
I've definitely wondered about this more than once: the relationship between "gameness" and "aggression". I don't have APBT's (papered AmStaffs here) but I do love bully breeds, and I have often thought that breeding out the aggression, especially given that many people now live in pretty close quarters (cities) but keeping the gameness for sport purposes would be ideal. The potential for DA in bully breeds (yes, I know any dog can be aggressive) is, for me, the biggest drawback to owning an APBT, or similar. Great thread!
 

TWadeJ

Big Dog
Thanks. My guess is that on the GD forum the typical response will be something like "a pit isn't a pit without dog aggression you moron."

Should be very interesting to compare the two threads a week from now.
 

Madeleinemom

MS Bites, My Dog Didn't
Staff member
It bothers me to no end when I read about bully specialized rescues that stick their heads in the sand and do not realistically prepare potential owners for what might happen when it comes to DA. But, I am being a dingbat here - being straightforward would reduce the opportunity for a sale, ahem, adoption ...
 

Capt. Roxy

Good Dog
Premium Member
LOL!!! You did it! Well I suggested didn't request :p Haha
Well, most of the answers don't answer your question except one. He did confirm that aggression and game are 2 different things but didn't really explain why as far as breeding and all that goes. I always thought true gameness was a RARE trait. Sure, you have game dogs who also may be or may not be aggressive but a true game dog who can turn it on and off like Pitbulldogs said I believe are the 5 percent you were talking about we see.
As far as why it cannot be bred out... and I AM NO EXPERT... heck, I've never even purchased a dog from a real legitimate breeder! So I really wouldn't know but if I had to guess it is because most game dogs are prone to dog aggression with it stemming back all the way from history on the reasons as to why they were bred in the first place; bull baiting, ratting, dog fighting, to farmers, and finally regular family pets.
I think it is hard to breed out the aggression part because with it will go many of the other beautiful aspects of this dog. To risk that is huge where as a responsible owner will care for these amazing dogs the proper way. So I'm guessing that is the reason why it is hard to breed that out and keep the rest?

It bothers me to no end when I read about bully specialized rescues that stick their heads in the sand and do not realistically prepare potential owners for what might happen when it comes to DA. But, I am being a dingbat here - being straightforward would reduce the opportunity for a sale, ahem, adoption ...
I totally agree with you!! Some rescues are just in it for the money and some are so insistent on not villainizing the breed any further by leaving the history out and forgetting to mention they *could* be DA. I've worked with a rescue who had a coordinator who refused to mention this and had many of the dogs returned to her. That in my opinion is just as bad as having a rescued dog get into a fight because now those families who had the dog and their neighbors, friends, etc. all only see that ONE bad part about them and not all the other beautiful, wonderful things about them. I think it is SO IMPORTANT to educate anyone who wants any of the "pits" because DA doesn't just stop with the APBT. Let's not even forget about how stressful it is for the dog who is finally getting used to structure and a new family and then bam, he is back in boarding and has no clue what he did wrong. He just feels let down and depressed...A lot of them think it is only environment, which is true to an extent but sometimes you could everything right in trying to prevent it but once it's on... it's on. There's really not much else you could do but be the responsible owner and take every precaution.
 

Nat Ursula

Good Dog
I love the story of your dog going into the neighbor's bed!

You never said if you liked Tonka's new collar. I was hoping to get feedback on how she currently looks.
 

Vicki

Administrator
Administrator
Game-Dog is dedicated to the preservation of the pit bull in its original form as a game-bred dog and in its modern incarnations as a loving companion pet and top competitor in weight pull competitions and conformation shows. We are opposed to all forms of animal cruelty, and do not promote any illegal activities, but we celebrate the history of the pit bull and value its qualities of courage, strength and tenacity as the essence of the breed. We are therefore against all forms of breed-specific legislation, and work to protect the constitutional rights of pit bull owner.

Breed preservation.
As far as game, there's only one way to establish that title for the APBT, and that's illegal in all 50 states and some countries. How do you define game? It's not the willingness to kill another dog.

The qualities that made them great within the four walls benefit them long after the box has been illegal. It benefited the breed, when matching was prominent, even to those who didn't match dogs. The traits legal matching instilled in these dogs allowed them to be versatile athletes who can compete and win at damn near anything put in front of them. Even though the box is a part of history, the dogs continue to benefit from their time there and the selection processes to ensure they came out victorious.

 

TWadeJ

Big Dog
I don't define game.

Your post makes great points but fails to address my main question which I believe is an important one. Animal aggression is NOT needed to be "a loving companion pet and top competitor in weight pull competitions and confirmation shows." Breeding away dog aggression would benefit the public and, in the long term, the dogs themselves in MY opinion. I realize I am likely in the minority here. Has any quality breeders truly tried to do this to determine if doing so really had any detrimental effect? My take is that the GD breeders are doing exactly the opposite - striving to breed "game" dogs which are dog aggressive (95%).

GD posts relish in the violence these dogs inflicted (and for those who are open their eyes still do by some) on one another. Please be honest about that. Not judging - just what I don't like about it.

I think the dogs are great and praise what the breeders created, I truly do, but believe the sport of dog fighting has always been horrendous and unethical and that breeding dogs to be dog aggressive, in today's society, should not be permitted. I find myself surprised in typing this but after struggling with this issue the last couple of days it is how I feel.

The thought of putting one of my "loving companion pets" into a box to have its throat ripped out, or rip out another dogs throat, each equally bad in my opinion, is just mind boggling to me.
 

TWadeJ

Big Dog
I love the story of your dog going into the neighbor's bed!

You never said if you liked Tonka's new collar. I was hoping to get feedback on how she currently looks.

Sorry I missed it - I think she is looking great. It is clear you are taking wonderful care of her! Just don't put her in a box with a game bred pit!! :)
 

Vicki

Administrator
Administrator
I don't define game.

Your post makes great points but fails to address my main question which I believe is an important one. Animal aggression is NOT needed to be "a loving companion pet and top competitor in weight pull competitions and confirmation shows." Breeding away dog aggression would benefit the public and, in the long term, the dogs themselves in MY opinion. I realize I am likely in the minority here. Has any quality breeders truly tried to do this to determine if doing so really had any detrimental effect? My take is that the GD breeders are doing exactly the opposite - striving to breed "game" dogs which are dog aggressive (95%).

GD posts relish in the violence these dogs inflicted (and for those who are open their eyes still do by some) on one another. Please be honest about that. Not judging - just what I don't like about it.

I think the dogs are great and praise what the breeders created, I truly do, but believe the sport of dog fighting has always been horrendous and unethical and that breeding dogs to be dog aggressive, in today's society, should not be permitted. I find myself surprised in typing this but after struggling with this issue the last couple of days it is how I feel.

The thought of putting one of my "loving companion pets" into a box to have its throat ripped out, or rip out another dogs throat, each equally bad in my opinion, is just mind boggling to me.

Your first post is just way too much to, um, wade through. If you could have simply posed the question, without all the personal bullshit, it might have been easier to find.
And I did answer you question. Breed preservation. If you do not enjoy the breed in it's
 

Vicki

Administrator
Administrator
After wading thru your post, I found six questions. Perhaps if you got to the point you wanted addressed and excluded the personal information, it may have been easier to answer all six of your questions.

1. Would any of you be willing to share your thoughts on this admittedly controversial issue or the more controversial one in the next paragraph?
Sure

2. What do you want out of your "pit" however you define "pit" for yourself?
I own American Pit Bull Terriers, and proud of every one of them. I define 'pit' as a hole in the ground, not the breed I own.


3. Gameness is a bad quality. I know it is historically accurate and the initial REASON for the breed, but with the current laws why is gameness needed or wanted?

Breed preservation. Define your version of 'gameness'
4. Do you think "gameness" in an ABPT is a positive or negative in November of 2016 and why?
It all depends on how YOU define gameness.

5. Another, more controversial issue I would love to get others opinions on is do you think dog fighting should still be legal?
No.
6. And if it was legal, would you participate?
Again, no.


 

Pamela Bates

Little Dog
Sorry to borrow your post Vicki, but had a tough time also getting my head around this topic.
1. Would any of you be willing to share your thoughts on this admittedly controversial issue or the more controversial one in the next paragraph?
Yep
2. What do you want out of your "pit" however you define "pit" for yourself?
I would have loved to have either one of them as a service dog, but I doubt that is going to happen. I also want a fun loving dog to keep me active. But I mostly want a dog that is willing to snuggle with me.
I consider "pits" in the broad sense, as many breeds of dogs that are put under an umbrella term
.

3. Gameness is a bad quality. I know it is historically accurate and the initial REASON for the breed, but with the current laws why is gameness needed or wanted?
I would say that "gameness" can be a great quality. I view it as in willingness to compete in any sport you put them in. I also consider "gameness" as putting dogs in in a box and letting them hurt or kill each other. That kind of "gameness" is a trait that I would not want in my dog. I would go as far to say that the people that participate in it are completely evil.
4. Do you think "gameness" in an ABPT is a positive or negative in November of 2016 and why?
I would have to say both due to how I define "gameness".
5. Another, more controversial issue I would love to get others opinions on is do you think dog fighting should still be legal?
In the immortal words of Stone Cold Steve Austin "Aw hell no" (please forgive me Lord)
6. And if it was legal, would you participate?
Definitely not.
 

Noah George

Little Dog
I think, and it seems you recognize this yourself, that you're confusing "gameness" and "aggression," Wade. Gameness, as I've always understood it, and as others have defined, is the willingness to keep going, to keep pushing, regardless of risk or the condition of the dog. Gameness is akin to tenacity and APBTs get it from both the bulldog and the terrier in their ancestry. It's what makes an APBT continue to scratch and fight an opponent despite their own injuries (dog fighting wasn't generally "to the death," but the matches could give owners and breeders an idea as to whether their dog, if it came to it, would continue until death). It's also what makes the terriers that go to ground continue to go into those dark spaces to fight animals often their size or larger, and with just as much attitude, and dispatch them, and what made bulldogs (and other similar stock dogs) capable of handling bulls that could and, given the chance, would maim or kill them.

Aggression is the negative that you're thinking about and what you've occasionally referred to as gameness -- the pit dogs that were totally fine around other dogs and animals outside of the pit were not fully dog- or animal-aggressive and it was the aggression that was "switched on" when facing another in the pit; by contrast, gameness is that "inner something" that those same pit dogs tapped into when injured in the pit, or that other game dogs tapped into when separated from their opponent but scratched to get back despite injuries. Some would say that's loyalty, and I've no doubt there is some connection there, but while a loyal dog fights to please, a game dog would continue to fight whether their owner owner were there or not, or even when their owner is doing everything to make them stop. I guess put simply and using a common phrase, an aggressive dog is one that will start or pursue a fight, whereas a game dog is one willing to finish that fight.

From my understanding, the biggest detriment to intentionally breeding dog- and animal-aggression out of these dogs (aside from dramatically reducing the gene pool, and the tricky fact that non-aggressive dogs can produce aggressive dogs, and vice versa), is that the two traits do seem interrelated somehow. Generally, it seems that APBTs are considered more aggressive than AmStaffs and American Bullies, and in hand are also generally considered "more game" (as a whole). Genetics is complicated and messy, and by trying to actively breed aggression out of the breed you're also inadvertently messing with other traits and changing the breed from what it is at the time. There's a slew of breeds who are now totally different when aggression was either intentionally bred out, or bred out by way of not selectively breeding for the trait. Ask most terrier folks, people who compete in earth trials or especially those who hunt with their dogs, and they'll tell you that a number of terrier breeds are now mostly useless for the tasks they were bred for -- one may argue it's because most people don't need them for the task, but the fact that there was a time where "scrappy-ness" in the ring was an important and desirable aspect of showing terriers conformationally, and that there's plenty of terriers who are rarely used for their original task or in trials but are still very much terriers, makes me think there's more behind the change.

Terriers are far from the only dogs who have changed quite a bit by aggression being bred out or not selectively bred for, but they're perhaps the best example given that APBTs are bull and terrier dogs.

Personally, no, if dog fighting were legal I would not participate. But I completely respect and appreciate that aspect of the breed's history and see the value it has served in the breed. I mean no offense by this, but if I may be blunt, I'm of the mind that if someone feels a breed would be better served by breeding the aggression out of it, then they would be better suited looking elsewhere than bully breeds and terriers, and I would be highly suspicious of a breeder intentionally trying to breed aggression out of APBTs or other terriers (as much as I would someone looking to breed severe aggression into their lines, to be honest). It has always struck me as a little odd when people would claim such love for a breed and follow it with "...if only they weren't [insert inherent breed characteristic here]." I suppose it "makes sense," but it has always been odd to me. Better, however, than denying the propensity.