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Penn Hip vs OFA

Discussion in 'Health & Nutritional Care' started by DancesWithCurs, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    Was really curious about your opinions on this subject. I know some people prefer one to the other and some people will go ahead and do both, and my friend has decided to do one or the other for her dog prior to getting into serious long distance running and hiking. Question is, which one do you all prefer done on a dog and why?
     
  2. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

    I actually just had Sako's hips & elbows done today, sending them to OFA. Why? For me, price was a big factor. I've heard varying opinions on both, and can't really add much insight other than that PennHip was a lot more expensive, so I went with OFA!
     
  3. monkeys23

    monkeys23 GRCH Dog

    OFA because with PennHip they actually displace the joint to measure laxity. Whereas OFA is just good radiographs of the joint, which is a skill in itself and is generally a much safer procedure. I've had good breeders warn me away from PennHip actually. We are currently saving up to do OFA! I'm expecting to have to sedate them, so thats an extra $55 times 2. I want to do it because we do sport training and are very active. :)

    I believe LilianaLove is a PennHip fan and thats what she had done on her Lily.
     
  4. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    To the both of you, how much did/will OFA cost?
     
  5. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

    Today cost me $240, that's the exam fee, x-rays, anesthesia, sending them off to OFA (which is $40 for hips/elbows). That was insanely low for my area; most other clinics wanted between $400-$600.. $550 was the average.
     
  6. LilianaLove

    LilianaLove GRCH Dog

    PennHIP. The main reason is that PennHIP is objective while OFA is subjective.

    PennHIP consists of 3 views: VD (OFA view), Compression, and Distraction.

    The reason PennHIP likes to look at the OFA view is to compare their objective numbers to OFA's subjective analysis. Other than that, the compression and distraction views are really where the money lies.

    PennHIP Fast Facts: PennHIP Hip Improvement Program > General Information > Fast Facts - Behind the Research


    Measuring Hip Laxity: Distraction Index - Measuring Laxity


    As far as PennHIP "displacing" the joints, it does not displace the joints any more than the joints would luxate. The subluxation of the joints using the technique is not harmful and most dogs experience no lingering discomfort.

    Cavitation of the joints can actually occur using the OFA method if the method is done correctly, as not only are you extending the hips but you are extending the hips and rotating them inward. This inward pull with extension can cause cavitation.
    Information on cavitation: Cavitation


    The bottom line is that OFA is the "gold standard" and unfortunately breeders do not want to fork over the extra money for the PennHIP (typically around $400 for the whole procedure). This limits the PennHIP data pool.

    It has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with money, IMO, when it comes to why breeders choose one over the other. I would choose PennHIP any day over OFA, and I 100% believe that if breeders started utilizing PennHIP more than OFA, we would see a reduction in degenerative joint disease in hips. Just my very humble opinion of course.

    I'll say, as someone who has had their pet undergo a PennHIP procedure, she was no worse for wear afterwards, no different than she would have been waking up from anesthesia after an OFA.
     
  7. K9 Love

    K9 Love Good Dog

    Neither of my dogs needed their hips scored, but if I were breeding, I would Penn Hip. Most of my breeder friends, especially those with large to giant breeds Penn Hip and swear by it.

    I think both OFA and Penn Hip have their pros and cons. I couldn't list off how many people I've heard complain about OFA results, the fee to re-submit, then their dog passes or not (again, lol), whereas my understanding of Penn Hip is, its numbers not personal opinion if that makes sense.

    If I just wanted to make sure my dog was healthy to do a strenuous activity, I would probably just submit to OFA. Planned on breeding in a breed where hips were an issue (most likely because I like large + sized dogs) I would Penn Hip.

    ETA - LL and I posted at the same time... What she said. :D
     
  8. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

    I think PennHip around here is upwards of $600.. no way I was going to pay almost as much as I paid for the dog for x-rays.

    Now, if his results came back iffy, and I wanted a second opinion, I may go with PennHip. But that's a big if. I actually just got done talking to his breeder about all of that, coincidentally!
     
  9. LilianaLove

    LilianaLove GRCH Dog

    If you think about it, PennHIP includes 3 radiographs and typically at least 1 hour of anesthesia time, with larger dogs taking more time. It takes more time and resources and is understandably more expensive. Prices will vary by region and veterinarian. Kady, it seems, from your previous posts, that your region is much more expensive than mine. But, it doesn't take that much time to call around and get a good price if you're willing to travel a bit (remember, almost any vet with an x-ray can do OFA, only vets trained to use the PennHIP technique are allowed to take PennHIP radiographs, so they are not as widespread). Would you be willing to drive a couple hours to save $200? I know a lot of people that do, and that's where we get a lot of our clientele for PennHIPs. In the time I've been there, we've done 3 American Bulldogs, 1 South African Boerboel, and Lily.
     
  10. Leslie H

    Leslie H Good Dog

    I like both, because while there is some overlap, they do both give you different information.
    I had Xanny tested because I was considering breeding her. I had reason to believe her sire had produced dysplasia in another litter, and I had reason to believe she had a dysplastic brother. Her sister was OFA good. OFA rated Xanny as fair. They felt that she had well conformed sockets, but they were lacking in depth, and one of her femoral heads was slightly flattened. To me, this wasn't persuasive. I then Pennhipped her. Her ratings were 0.38/0.29. According to Pennhip, ratings of .30 and lower have almost no chance of dysplasia, dogs 0.70 and higher were very likely to develop DJD. Xanny's ratings put her in the top 10% of the breed, w/very little laxity, and no DJD.

    So, if I was rolling in dough, I'd do both. Scheme just had her 2nd birthday, and finished her heat cycle a couple weeks ago. I'm looking for an OFA clinic, as she will likely be bred.
    W/Soleil, who I knew I wouldn't be breeding, I just had my own vet x-ray her, so I could see if I could work her.
    I like OFA's open database, sadly, there are plenty of people who lie about hip tests, it's very easy to check w/OFA. Also, you can get elbows and patellas done w/OFA (and cardiac).
     
  11. LilianaLove

    LilianaLove GRCH Dog

    I just want to put a word of caution out there. It is important to remember that, because the PennHIP database is limited to only those that do PennHIPs, there is a likelihood that the breed percentiles are skewed with a low sample count. This is why, in my opinion, it is that much more important for breeders to utilize PennHIP, if they truly had the intentions of bettering the breed in mind. Increasing the data pool infinitely improves the statistical analysis of hip dysplasia. If breeders were breeding to better the breed, they would add this information into the database.
     
  12. Leslie H

    Leslie H Good Dog

    I agree, even OFA has a disappointingly small # of APBT's.
    I haven't kept up w/Pennhip, but when I did Xanny, the median for the APBT was 0.57 or something equally mediocre. Pennhip suggests only incorporating dogs w/numbers lower than the median into the breeding pool, but I think 0.57 is way too high. It would have to be an exceptional dog, IMO, w/a rating 0.50 or higher, that should be considered as broodstock.
     
  13. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

    I'd drive a bit to save a considerable amount.. my area is definitely expensive. I remember when I was first getting Sako and was calling around about ear crops that the average price was $700. He got cropped by his breeders vet (in GA) for $250 or $300, I can't remember exactly.

    There was a health testing clinic I was going to take him to that was like 4hrs. away where it would've been around $160 for OFA hips/elbows.. 8hr. round trip drive isn't worth saving less than $100.
     
  14. DancesWithCurs

    DancesWithCurs Good Dog

    Where's that place, kady?

    @Liliana: Thanks for all the info. I think if I was breeding I would probably do Penn
     
  15. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

  16. monkeys23

    monkeys23 GRCH Dog

    Glad to see so much interesting info being posted. Thanks!
     
  17. Libby

    Libby GRCH Dog

    I had PennHip done on Kitty. It only cost $240 and that was including the sedative. She didn't show any ill side affects from it, and the rads were very nice. When I had been shopping around for OFA vets for Umah, I was being quoted around $400...so I guess it depends on where you are, for pricing on both.
     
  18. BethBurgess2007

    BethBurgess2007 Little Dog

    I like them both, but seeing the Pennhip being mis-used. Or, I should say seeing breeders mislead the public. In my area, you can get hip xrays done for $75 dollars, plus the OFA fee. Pennhip is 300-400, and only 2-3 places do it in the whole state. For instance: I see many apbt/ast breeders with dogs scored in the high .60 to .80 and breeding them(knowing that their dogs already failed ofa and trying to pretend to be reputable). Then many are so ignorant they are taking those dogs with the high scores and breeding them to other high-scoring dogs, which is the opposite of what they are supposed to be doing. I like to see a pennhip score under .45, and am actually disgusted with anything over .60 being bred, but what can you do?

    -Pros of OFA: cheaper, more traditional, public results, and reputable
    -Cons of OFA: it is 3 vets opinion, not a measurement and only one view
    -Pros of PennHip: actual measurement, 3 views of hips and can be more useful in a breeding program
    -Cons of PennHip: Expensive, not public database, to uninformed public, can be misleading
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2012
  19. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    so with pennhip you want a low score?
     
  20. BethBurgess2007

    BethBurgess2007 Little Dog

    Yes: anywhere from .25 to .54 is considered ok with apbts/asts.

    I have my own PennHip rating system. LOL!

    .25 to .34 Excellent
    .35 to .45 Good
    .46 to .50 Fair
    .51 to .55 Iffy(borderline)
    Over .60 Dysplastic
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2012

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