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"out crossing"breeds

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by adjecyca, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. adjecyca

    adjecyca Good Dog

    "out crossing"breeds

    Something on another thread made me decide to make this thread, how do you guys feel about "out crossing" dogs to better the breed? To make a healthier dog?

    Here is an example,
    "This is LUA Dalmatian Fiona ("Fiacre First and Foremost") with breeder Julie Evans at Crufts 2011. Fiona is a descendent of the Dalmatian Backcross Project, which in the 1970, crossed a Pointer to a Dalmatian to restore a lost gene to the Dalmatian to fix a serious health problem in the breed"
    [video=youtube;y5gOt9432Wg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5gOt9432Wg[/video]
     
  2. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Don't try it at home. Leave it to geneticists, professionals and proven breed stewards.
    There are already plenty of "experiments" in shelters and rescues.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2012
  3. ignitethis

    ignitethis Good Dog

    Well, as it is breeding to better the breed... I see nothing wrong with it. Outcrossing has been used to solidify and improve breeds for ages anyways... it's not changing the breed drastically or done without caution and care.
     
  4. davidfitness83

    davidfitness83 Good Dog

    It depends on what someone's interpretation is of "bettering" a breed. With all due respect to Bully people, and for the record I own one my self but you can clearly see where this interpretation can do more harm than good. If someone wants to out cross to clean the dog's structure, rid of genetic problems, change skin pigments for healthier skin, or improve temperament I do not see a problem. But if someone wants to play a puzzle game with their dogs and add giant limbs, or shorter limbs because of appearance then that's no good.

    I think there are some very nice Bullies out there and those that outcrossed the right way produced one of the most perfect companion dogs. Obviously there are terrible examples of them, but the clean ones are awesome dogs for sure :)
     
  5. adjecyca

    adjecyca Good Dog

    When i say bettering i am talking strictly for health and performance, not looks at all.
     
  6. davidfitness83

    davidfitness83 Good Dog

    I say go for it, health/temperament/performance > looks.

    Ill take a Bully with no papers if it has crazy drive, excellent health scores and amazing temperament, over a dog with famous names on the pedigree that cannot move or breath.
     
  7. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    I am in agreement with out-crossing.The health of the dogs is of the utmost importance to me, followed by performance, and then looks.
     
  8. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    I brought up the LUA dals because I LOVE Fiona. Dalmatians are my favorite companion breed, PERIOD. If I was ever at a point where I didn't want a working dog I would want an LUA Dal. I wanted one for SO long, from the time I was just a little kid, but I gave up when I learned about their uric acid problems because I don't want an unhealthy dog... so I was so excited when I heard about Fiona. Maybe one day my childhood dream of having a companion Dalmatian will come true. :)

    I am an enormous fan of outcrossing in the case of most unhealthy breeds, or breeds whose working ability is starting to fall apart. The Doberman fits the bill on both accounts. I have often wondered what the results would be like if somebody crossed a Malinois to a working Doberman, and then continued to breed the healthiest working Dobes they could find to those offsprings. It could help eradicate heart problems and Wobblers and vWD while reintroducing some harness and drive into the breed.

    However, it's a much different case than the Dalmatian. The difference being, there ARE still healthy Dobermans with hard working ability out there, unlike the Dalmatian where 100% of the breed was affected with high uric acid levels. So is there really a reason to outcross...? I say if it helps improve the breed's health and functionality, it should be done. Pedigrees are worthless!!! Dogs can't read 'em!!
     
  9. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    random thought, bu t would you guys support a kennel club that didnt go by bloodline/pedigree for their dogs, but by the dog fitting into a standard performance and appearance archetype? I think this would ultimately result in less "breeds" per se, but allow for a greater genetic diversity. I think the kennel clubs are too preoccupied in dividing up the types of dogs. What if they just combine the breeds into a larger group?

    For example: instead of having springer spaniels, English springer spaniels, cocker spaniels, English cocker spaniels, field spaniels, Irish water spaniels, and welsh springer spaniels....you would just have one group: frikin' SPANIELS
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2012
  10. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    That's largely what dogs used to be, before kennel clubs and dog shows were around. You had dogs that did a job, and they got bred to other dogs that did that job. They didn't care about pedigrees and shit, they just bred the best to the best.
     
  11. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    feel like restarting that practice? :P
     
  12. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    ... screw pedigrees and registries and instead of the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, AmBully and whatever else backyard breeders come up with tossed in ... there could just be Pit Bulls !!! Sanctioned events could be held on Saturday afternoons at Walmart ...umm ... no thanks.
     
  13. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    Re: "out crossing"breeds

    Lots of people already do! A large percent of the working dog world uses crossbreeds that weren't bred to have "pure blood" but to do a job. Look at catchrcall's dogs. I don't think he has a single pedigree dog besides his new catahoula pup.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
     
  14. davidfitness83

    davidfitness83 Good Dog

    In theory that is how the APBT came to be, a little bit of everything and whatever passed the test then it became IT. Even within pure breed lines of APBT you have huge physical differences, look at a colby dog and a hollingsworth dog. Why is this? because many types of dogs went into the mix and the only objective they were trying to achieve was performance and not a standard, nor a conformation show.

    Since we have shows now, and loyalty to breeders, kennels, bloodlines people don't want to change that.
     
  15. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Even when ONLY breeding best to best are you going to have ALL top performing dogs in the litter? ... nope. Maybe not even one. Those who successful did this with sporting dogs ... also culled, sometimes entire litters ... and/or let dogs go to the general public where they were bred to the same lesser dogs who were in turn breed to lesser dogs than the original ... and sooner or later you end up with a high percentage of culls bred to culls. But OH ... just turn them into a fad "breed" and make money.

    Then someone comes along and wants to turn that fad breed back into a performance dog ... screw that. If you want a working/performance dog ... get one to begin with and MAYBE improve on that if you can. But don't expect every dog in the litter ... or ANY dog in the litter to work/perform and be prepared to cull.
     
  16. davidfitness83

    davidfitness83 Good Dog

    Call me crazy but I would love to see what Neo X Bull Terrier would be like.
     
  17. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    Re: "out crossing"breeds

    Sans BYBs, that sounds great to me. But BYBs will exist no matter what you do.

    But, we're getting off topic (sorry, my bad)... This isn't about creating new breeds our abolishing the idea of breeds. This is about whether or not it's ethical to outcross to improve the health and welfare of a breed.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
     
  18. K9 Love

    K9 Love Good Dog

    I am in high favour of outcrossing with a purpose for a number of breeds.

    I have a friend that's breed of choice is bottle necked currently as it's a new breed and they do very carefully planned outcrosses, and plan for many generations in the future because of this issue.

    I think it's very easy for people who don't know what they're doing to just start creating a bunch of mutts instead of outcrossing properly, but we're not talking about those people. If executed properly, outcrossing is something that a lot of breeds could gain from.
     
  19. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    especially the bulldogs and other short-faced dogs.

    which breeds do you guys think need out-crossing most?
     
  20. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    I'd really like to see Cavalier King Charles Spaniels get some fresh, healthy blood in the breed.
     

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