old classic Hinks terrier/ Indian bull terrier.

[KateNLeo]

@ East Coast Canuck:

I hog hunt, and nutria hunt with my dogs. (Bull Terriers, APBT's, and Patterdales) These two types of animals specifically have done horrible damage to our crops/property/eco system here. They are destroying our way of life out here, our livliehood, by tearing up crops, etc. They are a nuisance, and breeding like rabbits.

How DARE you have the NERVE to insinuate that in me hunting with my dogs, that that is "no better than dog fighting." Yet another individual passing judgement and making ignorant statements and assumptions about something they no NOTHING about obviously. At least do your research before declaring such judgements and slandering an entire large group of people (hunters that hunt with dogs.)

Let me give you a REALISTIC scenario here so that MAYBE you will have a better understanding of how a typical hog hunt is conducted. We have a small pack of bay dogs, that seek and find the hogs. Their job is to stop the hog from running, keep him at bay, (by barking at the hog, no contact) until we can get there. Once we make it to the bay, we release a catch dog, that immediately takes hold, usually on one of the hog's ears. As soon as the catch dog has hold, we run right in and either hobble the hog, or stick him. The catch dog is immediately pulled off. That catch dog has a VERY important job, as a wild hog is very much capable of tearing a human being up pretty darn bad if given the chance. There is no 'tormenting' or 'watching the dog tear the animals to shreds.' The meat from these feral nuisances, either goes into our freezers to feed our family, or to the local food bank to feed hungry families in need.


People seem to forget that from the beginning of time, man had used dogs for all kinds of different purposes, including HUNTING. Hunting does NOT equal 'watching the dogs tear animals to shreds and be tortured' and all those lovely presumptions I am sick of hearing. My dogs are all my companions, but most of them do indeed partake in various LEGAL activities.

Here are some links to educate yourself on these 'poor hogs' that we hunt. Also the nutria.


http://www.nutria.com/site4.php

http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/factshts/020-00.pdf

http://icwdm.org/handbook/rodents/nutria.asp

http://www.crittercontrol.com/servic...bitdamage.html

http://www.allstateanimalcontrol.com...bits/index.php

YES. Here, Here!!!!

 

[DancesWithCurs]

Again, I am probably on the wrong side of the fence onthis one, but what's wrong with a lazy BT? No dog should be fat, but if a dog is barrel shaped does not mean it is fat. And some people love the look and personality of a BT, but don't want it to have ~game~. My dogs have always been passive and well behaved couch potatoes. Just because they don't want to go out and kill something, or pull weights, or run around like an idiot constantly doesn't make it any less of a great pet and member of the family.

You're confusing the term "drive" and "game". Badly. Game is not drive and drive is not game, not will it ever be. Another thing you're badly misinformed on. The Bull Terrier is a working breed and to actually want to water it down is a great disservice to a working breed of any type. If you want a couch ornament there are better ways to get it than killing the essence of a breed to the point where it's just a shell of what it's supposed to be. What's the point of having a shih tzu in a bull terrier's skin?

DWC do you think a old school bt would be good for hog hunting?
i know the other guy who hunts gigs ( why am I having such a brain fart!) was explaining why modern day bt's aren't good.

When it comes to catch dogs, I find drive/tenacity, grip, and the ability to learn some of the the most important things. Good working BTs, both old and new have that in spades

 

[DancesWithCurs]

if everyone in the US bred dogs to have "game" can you IMAGINE what kind of living hell the US would be like?? not everyone is physically or mentally capable of dealing with a high drive dog, the world doesnt NEED as many high drive dogs anymore, we just DONT there is NO changeing that, we have technology, we cannot change what we have created and where we are today. so WHAT is the point in mass producing dogs with high drives?????? there is NO point, most of them would just be killed anyways. not becuase all people are lazy but we dont even HAVE the resorces to keep millions of hunting dogs hunting for sport.
it would be a HUGE disaster to set the bull terrier back to how it used to be. and i hate to say it but that IS the VERY reason pitbulls have such a bad rap now, thats the reason there are SO MANY BSL everywhere becuase these dogs STILL have such high drives and people are morons who DONT know or are unable to deal with them. times have changed, we need to change the breeds WE created to match us now. im sure it sound terrable, but we DID create these creatures, we cant change that all we can do is work on changeing them some more so we donot TORMENT them when we cannot accomidate there high needs.

why would you keep creating dogs iwth high drives when there are less and less people capable of dealing with those needs, even if you get these dogs into sports sometimes its NOT enough and its cruel becuase we cant accomadate them, they are manic and unstable and tormented by having this high drive and high energy they cannot expell.

As I previously said, game is not nor will it ever be drive. They are just not the same thing. As for creating dogs with high drives:

If that's how the breed was supposed to be, then there's no reason to change it.

If you can't accommodate the dog, then IMO don't get that breed, over making it into a sad shell that will never compare to what it once was, like the Show Shepherd is. I don't see why a breed should be watered down just so lazy people can be accommodated. Being obsessed with how a dog looks like over how it functions is the reason so many breeds are up shit creek right now with no paddle

 

[xchairity_casex]

Excuse my misuse of the words game and drive, i do get those mixed up sometimes.

and why let a breed die when it can evolve into what we NEED? the breed was created when we needed hunters/raters/fighters now we dont NEED so many of them, and more then likely the bull terrier breed WOULD pretty much die out due to humans being lazy.
look WE created dogs for our work, to be our,well slaves basically in the begining, men needed somthing to work for them so they created dogs.
well, now we dont NEED them to do work for us anymore, we NEED companions and pets. we can either keep breeding high drive dogs and pass them round and end up having mroe then half of them end up PTS and suffering cruel lives being chained in the back yard becuase the oners cannot deal with it OR we can create a mellower more family freindly dog and have MORE then half of them live happy fufilled lives as a pet.

becuase ultimatly people are going to breed dogs, people are going to buy dogs, so instead of creating dogs whom are going to be put down after a few months why not create a dog whos HAPPY to be ni a family situation?

i mean pretty much EVERY dog started out with a "job" why are you not complaining about poodles not being hunting dogs anymore? how come your not up in arms about dachsunds being "pets" and not out burrowing after badgars? how come no one is upset over yorkies not being sent out to kill mice? those dogs evolved into pets and are doing pretty good.

look people are going to be lazy, people are going to be ignorant, people are going to be stupid and people ARE going to buy and own dogs, so WHY would breeders (GOOD breeders) keep createing a high maintanace dog only to be turn out into home and suffer from morons who will not give it everything it needs?
not only are breeders of mellow dogs doing to dogs a favor, they are also doing society a favor by creating a dog who is happy as a family dog with a lot less excercise needs.

 

[DancesWithCurs]

and why let a breed die when it can evolve into what we NEED? the breed was created when we needed hunters/raters/fighters now we dont NEED so many of them, and more then likely the bull terrier breed WOULD pretty much die out due to humans being lazy.

Watering them down is them dying out due to humans being lazy

look WE created dogs for our work, to be our,well slaves basically in the begining, men needed somthing to work for them so they created dogs.

Slaves implies work with no return. Working with dogs is a mutually beneficial partnership

well, now we dont NEED them to do work for us anymore, we NEED companions and pets.

Actually, we don't really need pets. We want pets. And anyone breeding a working breed for the purposes of pets is a BYB. Plain and simple. If someone's really hopped up for a pet, try a breed rescue or a regular shelter

we can either keep breeding high drive dogs and pass them round and end up having mroe then half of them end up PTS and suffering cruel lives being chained in the back yard becuase the oners cannot deal with it OR we can create a mellower more family freindly dog and have MORE then half of them live happy fufilled lives as a pet.

Or we can just go the medium and just not give dogs to stupid people that can't handle them without turning them into shells of a breed because people are lazy. I see no reason to accommodate the lazy.

becuase ultimatly people are going to breed dogs, people are going to buy dogs, so instead of creating dogs whom are going to be put down after a few months why not create a dog whos HAPPY to be ni a family situation?

If that's how you feel then why not just rescue a mutt?

i mean pretty much EVERY dog started out with a "job" why are you not complaining about poodles not being hunting dogs anymore?

Actually I do. All the time. And the need for people to have couch ornaments has turned a good portion of the breed into neurotic genetic nightmares. But for your information, there ARE working poodles.

how come your not up in arms about dachsunds being "pets" and not out burrowing after badgars?
how come no one is upset over yorkies not being sent out to kill mice?

Doesn't have to be the work the dog was originally bred for. Both breeds have excelled as blood trailing dogs, also valued for their short heights that lets them navigate and work close to the ground

those dogs evolved into pets and are doing pretty good.

If by "doing pretty good" you mean "overly bred genetic nightmares who often lose all their teeth by the age of 2 and are prime puppy mill and shelter bait because we accommodate the stupid and lazy over just saying no to them", then yes.

look people are going to be lazy, people are going to be ignorant, people are going to be stupid and people ARE going to buy and own dogs, so WHY would breeders (GOOD breeders) keep createing a high maintanace dog only to be turn out into home and suffer from morons who will not give it everything it needs?

If they're accommodating lazy ignorant people, then they're not all that good, now are they?

not only are breeders of mellow dogs doing to dogs a favor, they are also doing society a favor by creating a dog who is happy as a family dog with a lot less excercise needs.

They're not doing dogs a favor at all. They're killing the breeds they claim to love so much. If a person can't be arsed to work with a breed's requirements, then they don't need that breed and it shouldn't be given to them. It really is that simple. Society as a whole needs to stop accommodating self entitled brats and start learning to say no. Most people that want a watered down dog in my experience shouldn't own a gerbil, much less a dog

 

[WorkingBullTerrier]

^^^^BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been a Vet Tech for 15yrs, as well as a shelter worker. It is UNREAL how many people turn dogs over for the dumbest darn reasons.....like:

- My Beagle wants to track everything, he keeps escaping, we can't keep him
- My Blue Heeler wants to herd the kids all the time, we can't keep him
- My JRT digs holes all over the yard, we can't keep him
- My APBT keeps attacking dogs at the dogs park, (classic) we can't keep him

WTF! If people would actually RESEARCH breeds and their ORIGINS from the beginning, that would save a shit ton of dogs from being dumped/surrendered/abandoned.......

My dogs that I work with, love me to death. My dogs and I have a VERY close relationship, and a mutual respect for eachother. Hell, I put my life in my catch dog's hands when I get in there to grab that big boar bare handed.

If you desire something that is happy with laying around all day doing nothing and has a very low energy level, get a CAT.

There are alot of mellow breeds out there, but still, pretty much every dog needs a minimal amount of exercise at least.

And yes, there are QUITE a few folks who DO NEED working dogs today.

Let's not be in denial over what the breed IS. Let's love and embrace the dogs for what they ARE.

 

[Ali132]

You do also realize by breeding out things in a breed you loose things.
Ive heard a lot of people say if you breed out the dog aggression and drive out of a apbt you will be breeding out their determination to do anything for you you be taking away their drive to push through anything to do what you want.
Thus you would be completely changing the breed even the good traits.

 

[DancesWithCurs]

Let's not be in denial over what the breed IS. Let's love and embrace the dogs for what they ARE.

x100000

If someone's eyes are bigger than what they're willing to care for, then let's not indulge them. Let's learn to say "no, you cannot handle this dog"

 

[Hucklebutt]

good good good!! i agree with dances with cures. I support a healthy working drive in any dog, i find it amazing to watch a dog do something that in its blood, or just something its good at and loves to do. Maybe some people want a couch potato dog because it resembles them and what they like to do. Each of my dogs has a desire or drive to do something, i dont push them to do something different but work on what there good at doing. Ellie likes to swim, shes driven to swim so I take her swimming, scarlett likes to run, i have a shitty knee so i put her on the bike, she can go for miles, shes the happiest when shes biking, she also likes to swim. Bowzer has a drive to do anything, a very diverse dog its incredibly easy to entertain him, all my dogs love the flirt pole. I would never agree with supporting a dog to have dog aggression or a drive thats out of control or dangerous. But if more people did things with there dogs that their dogs really wanted to do instead of watering down their personality the dogs wouldnt act out of control. I would never support removing the natural working drive in any dog, IMO thats ruining a breed. Its not the people breeding dogs for their drive that are the problem but that people purchase them ignorantly that are the true problem.

 

[xchairity_casex]

im not saying quit breeeding dogs for work, or dogs with high drive, im saying dont breed ALL of them that way.

and people are NOT going to be responsible, NOTHING is going to make people responsible, people ARE going to buy dogs for looks PERIOD. and a breeder looking to create a new show dog should jsut what? throw the rest of the litter away and keep teh one that will make the best show dog instead of finding them pet homes?

we have 2 types of labs we have working dogs and we have mellow laid back pet dogs, we have family german shepards AND we have working german shepards, so whats wrong with bull terriers being that way? the only problem with bull terriers is they are a rarer breed,not many people knows about them, much less looks to them as a working dog. most people think of working dogs they think of german shepards,belgian mellinois (sorry no spell check) notm any even know what a bull terrier is. if bull terriers were as popular as those breeds then by all means, mass produce dogs with super high prey drive, but intill that time dont. your only condeming a litter of pups to death.

 

[Kamdon]

Wow. Another ignorant moron comes in, makes a dumb ass statement, and doesn't come back to defend their beliefs when they know they opened a can of worms. Good job clown

 

[Kamdon]

And when did chain spots start becoming a CRUEL way to treat a dog?

 

[Hucklebutt]

chaining a dog is illegal in arizona lol

 

[DancesWithCurs]

im not saying quit breeeding dogs for work, or dogs with high drive, im saying dont breed ALL of them that way.

Why on earth would anyone that actually loves their breed purposely breed mellow dogs to suit the pet trade

and people are NOT going to be responsible, NOTHING is going to make people responsible, people ARE going to buy dogs for looks PERIOD.

They can't if a breeder is responsible enough to say "no". Can you honestly say that if you went to a breeder and they were selling dogs to the first douche that walked past, you would honestlybuy dogs from them?

and a breeder looking to create a new show dog should jsut what? throw the rest of the litter away and keep teh one that will make the best show dog instead of finding them pet homes?

1. You'd be surprised at the number of show breeders willing to do just that. 2) A show breeder breeding show quality dogs and ending up with some pet quality puppies they want to sell off =/= breeding exclusively for pets. The latter can have as much health tests and pretty ribbons as they want. They're still peddling harder than Lance Armstrong

we have 2 types of labs we have working dogs and we have mellow laid back pet dogs, we have family german shepards AND we have working german shepards, so whats wrong with bull terriers being that way?

I had a pet Lab from a puppy mill. He was not laid that laid back. But if you're trying to use Labs or German Shepherds as an example, it's a bad one. Popularity of these breeds is slowly but surely destroying them. The structure of the average non-work GSD is terrible, and don't get me started on Labs. And now we have a bunch of neurotic dysplastic genetic nightmares on our hands. If Stephanitz saw the GSD today I have no doubt in my mind that this man would be horrified. You know what he said?

"The most striking feature of the correctly bred German Shepherd are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity, and hardness."

Why would you want to destroy this man's work creating this breed all so some lazy jackass can have a "Good looking" dog?

He also said this:

This man is rolling in his grave right now for what you're suggesting be done to your own breed.


You want to see that happen to the BT? Really? You sure you love this breed?

the only problem with bull terriers is they are a rarer breed,not many people knows about them,

And you need to sit there and thank your chosen deity for every day that this holds true

much less looks to them as a working dog. most people think of working dogs they think of german shepards,belgian mellinois (sorry no spell check) notm any even know what a bull terrier is.

The general public's thoughts are irrelevant

if bull terriers were as popular as those breeds then by all means, mass produce dogs with super high prey drive, but intill that time dont. your only condeming a litter of pups to death.

See, your issue is that you seem to think that I'm saying to mass produce dogs. I'm not, and I never will. I'm saying that breeds are fine the way they are and we don't need to cater to lazy fuckoffs to make them feel better. If you're breeding a dog, keep it true to the breed and don't piss in the eye of his creators just so you can have something that "looks cool". That thinking is ruining breeds, so why are you inviting it to ruin yours?

 

[RockerPit]

Lol you anti working dog people are funny.
I also love how every dog with working potential MUST be a mutt.

 

[WorkingBullTerrier]

Thank you Kamdon, lol. That happens alot on the internet. What a shame, haha.

And yeah, I've seen places where chaining is illegal, but that certainly doesn't mean it's "cruel." When done properly, that is the most secure responsible way to contain a dog IMO.

 

[xchairity_casex]

dont let one persons opinion rub you the wrong way, by all means mass produce high energy, high drive dogs and see what happens.
you will NEVER be able to keep stupid people away from them no matter how hard you try, no matter what type of contracts you write up and how careful you are to choose the "right owner" eventually a good few will end up in the hands of idiots, why do you think pitbulls are being banned left in right?
becuase a few good drivey dogs fell into the hands of morons who bred them then sold them to whom ever.

like i said before, nothing wrong with high drivey dogs, its the morons whos hands they fall into and the more your produce the more chances youll have of that happening.
all it takes is that one person who talks about how they are looking for a working dog, how much of an active lifestyle they have, how much they know about dogs, and prove to you they KNOW alot. then they have the money to come meet you several times and meet the mom and dad. they seem like a nice person you sell them a dog, 3 years down the road, they dont feel like doing the "work" anymore, they now have a new job they enjoy better, sure the contract SAYS to give the dog back but they find it easier to sell the dog outright, make a few bucks, the dog gets sold to person whos always wanted one like this! the let the dog run loose where it attacks someone, or maybe this person breeds the dog to whatever and creates lots of little drivey pitbulls sold off to anyone who will have them in the newspaper.

do i want that to happen to the bull terrier? NO i dont want that to happen to ANY breed.
and the even worst part about mass producing high driven dogs is the sheer amount of people who read all these dog training books that are full of BS and THINK they are doing the right thing, or they read ONE GOOD book about basic training and STILL cannot control the dog becuase basic obedience is not always enough for dogs like that. or the people who are heavy handed and try doing the alpha roll shit becuase they see it on Tv and its worked with 2 other dogs previously.
there are just not enough people to deal with a massive amount of high driven dogs.

BUT this is all i have to say, i have a feeling most of you who are all gung-ho about mass producing high drive dogs will never see my point becuase YOU can deal with and enjoy them, that everything else is inferior and do not like to see the bigger picture. so i will not argue the point anylonger

 

[DancesWithCurs]

dont let one persons opinion rub you the wrong way, by all means mass produce high energy, high drive dogs and see what happens.

For some reason you seem to think keeping a breed to it's original standard standard and temperament is wanting to mass produce them. Stop. Just stop. You keep talking about mass production, but fail to realize that mass production of puppies and dogs is first and foremost a pet trade thing.

you will NEVER be able to keep stupid people away from them no matter how hard you try, no matter what type of contracts you write up and how careful you are to choose the "right owner" eventually a good few will end up in the hands of idiots,

So basically what you're saying is, "people are going to be dumb anyway, let's encourage it"

why do you think pitbulls are being banned left in right?
becuase a few good drivey dogs fell into the hands of morons who bred them then sold them to whom ever.

Drive and aggression are not the same, and it'd do you well to never confuse them

like i said before, nothing wrong with high drivey dogs, its the morons whos hands they fall into and the more your produce the more chances youll have of that happening.

You seem to keep thinking that we're talking about mass production. We're not. Stop

all it takes is that one person who talks about how they are looking for a working dog, how much of an active lifestyle they have, how much they know about dogs, and prove to you they KNOW alot. then they have the money to come meet you several times and meet the mom and dad. they seem like a nice person you sell them a dog, 3 years down the road, they dont feel like doing the "work" anymore, they now have a new job they enjoy better, sure the contract SAYS to give the dog back but they find it easier to sell the dog outright, make a few bucks, the dog gets sold to person whos always wanted one like this! the let the dog run loose where it attacks someone, or maybe this person breeds the dog to whatever and creates lots of little drivey pitbulls sold off to anyone who will have them in the newspaper.

Again drive =/= aggression. Stop confusing the two

do i want that to happen to the bull terrier? NO i dont want that to happen to ANY breed.

Really? Because that's exactly what you're asking for

and the even worst part about mass producing high driven dogs is the sheer amount of people who read all these dog training books that are full of BS and THINK they are doing the right thing, or they read ONE GOOD book about basic training and STILL cannot control the dog becuase basic obedience is not always enough for dogs like that. or the people who are heavy handed and try doing the alpha roll shit becuase they see it on Tv and its worked with 2 other dogs previously.

The only one talking about mass producing dogs is you

there are just not enough people to deal with a massive amount of high driven dogs.

Again, the only one talking about "massive amounts" of anything is you

BUT this is all i have to say, i have a feeling most of you who are all gung-ho about mass producing high drive dogs will never see my point becuase YOU can deal with and enjoy them, that everything else is inferior and do not like to see the bigger picture. so i will not argue the point anylonger

For what has to be the umpteenth time, the only one talking about mass producing high drive dogs is you. No one else. A dog is a living animal, not a plastic toy. No one should be mass producing anything and I'm positively baffled how you got "let's mass produce high drive dogs" from "let's not cater to lazy fucks who don't deserve the a gerbil, much less a dog". What you propose, which is watering down a breed to make it "handleable" for a bunch of people that probably don't need a dog in any capacity? THAT IS WHERE THE BULK OF MASS PRODUCTION AND PUPPY MILLING COMES FROM. And I'm baffled as to why you would wish a bunch of millers and money breeders on any breed, much less yours

 

[WorkingBullTerrier]

There is 'mass production' of the canine species as a whole, certainly not just one breed. That would be why shelters kill millions of dogs of all breeds a year, and why rescues are all above their capacity as well. There are people with ALL kinds of breeds of dogs that decide a year or a few down the road that that dog 'doesn't suit their needs' anymore. Owner surrenders happen every single day. It's not JUST with high drive dogs. It's shitty people that never deserved to own a dog to begin with that dump dogs like that.

As stated above, no one here is talking about 'mass producing high drive dogs.' As I even stated, we don't breed our working stock, until they get up in age and we need replacements, and even then we keep them all within our circle.

 

[xchairity_casex]

WHY am i talking mass production? BECUASE PEOPLE ARE STUPID!!!!! doesnt matter WHAT THE DOGS TEMPERMENT IDIOTS WILL MASS PRODUCE!!!!

i KNOW all breeds are mass produced they will ALWAYS BE MASSED PRODUCED! ,it doesnt matter if every breed of dog nowdays had stayed exactly the same as it used to, people would still be mass producing them to make a buck.

and im not confusing drive for aggression at all, BUT drive, if not given proper outlets CAN and DOES escalate. a dog with high prey drive is let loose, it sees a small child running dog the street its far MORE liekly to chase that child and either jump on it and knock it down or try to take a snap at it not out of aggression but becuase its instinct to chase moving prey, a child has now been bitten, it takes off and sees people on bicycles chases and nips at the bike or the people peddling then goes off again and sees a person walking a tiny dog the drivey dog sees prey since its had no amount of training or excercise he goes in to chase the tiny dog to play or grab (again not aggression) by the time the dog is caught that could be 3 reports of "a dog attack" by the same dog who had it been properly excercised and worked with would have been fine, but since it wasnt it was highly excited, and being high prey driven and drivey it went after the movment which happend to be a child, bike riders and a tiny dog. its deemed dangerous and pts.

i NEVER said anything about aggression, many of the so called "pit bull attacks " i beilive are simply like that, an overly excited dog who hasnt been excercised properly or worked with gets loose and WAm the whole world points fingers at the "dangerously aggressive pit bull"

so WHY should idiots be caterd to? so that dogs donot have to go thru life being completly miserable.

seriously, if you think that if every bull terrier breeder stopped breeding pet quality mellower dogs and began breeding high drive dogs the whole world would suddenly wake up and start being more active and stop mass producing dogs and be more responsible then you really need to wake up becuase it just wouldnt happen.

i have nothing against working dog breeders, if your responsible about it then good,create some awsome and amazing working dogs and get more people to take a look at bull terriers as working dogs and see how amazing then can be and what they are capable of, hog dogs,ratters,agility,shutzhund (spelling?) police work, whatever.

but seriously, im done with this conversation becuase i dont suspect im coming across clearly.