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Ok all this talk about standard and registries

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by pitchik, Jun 13, 2008.

  1. Big_Ant

    Big_Ant Little Dog

    True, HOWEVER, that should not deter one from working a dog in events that would show the dogs VERSATILITY and ATHLETICISM, which are also traits of the breed.

    That's about the most ass-backwards statement in this entire thread. People should breed for looks? Someone please help me stop laughing.

    A dog should be bred ONLY if it is proven that the dog has some proven working ability, not just because it can stand pretty in a ring and trot when told to do so.

    I'm not sure if you are referring to your dog or your dogs line, but from what I can see, your dog is not what I would call looking closely like the early CH fighters. And IMO, the UKC standard is followed very weakly by most judges and they usually award to fluffy staffs instead of real APBTs.
  2. BlueRose_Kennel

    BlueRose_Kennel Little Dog

    I agree with this too but the question still remains: how can we judge APBT's in the showring and still be true to the esseance of the breed or breed type?
  3. Big_Ant

    Big_Ant Little Dog

    You can't. And that's the problem at hand, you are focusing on the issue as being resolved by showing, which is can, and never was, able to be done.
  4. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    If you are not breeding to preserve this breed, you should not be breeding (not directed at anyone in particular). JMHO. Looks mean nothing if the dog is not bred correctly.
  5. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    I think I see your point BA in as far as the APBT. But I do know too that there are many breeds that have a "show" look for conformation and a "field" look to the breed as you might find it anywhere in the real world. So, it does not surprise me that a pit bull dog would be any different, at least not in the context of conformation competition as applies to participating in a registry sanctioned event. That is why I don't like or trust registries to preserve the breed.
  6. BlueRose_Kennel

    BlueRose_Kennel Little Dog

  7. Big_Ant

    Big_Ant Little Dog

    That's the problem. People shouldn't breed for conformation, conformation should come along with the working and temperament aspects, but not as a main point of a breeding program.
  8. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    I really don't even know what to say to that aside from it's already been done with the AST. Breeding a dog for LOOKS is the downfall of any breed, look at the majority of AKC breeds, hip displasia, poor temperament, genetic defects, etc. . The AKC AST Breed Standard was based on Colbys Primo.

    That statement is just rediculous, in all due respect.

    What a dog Looks like has nothing to do with how he will perform, how many AKC CH Labs, Goldens, Beagles whatever can perform anywhere near their field trial counterparts...NONE.

    I posted this before, but I'll post it again, because it really says it all:

    " I have often been amused by Staffordshire or Bull Terrier people as I listen to them debate the physical traits that make up a top fighting dog. The irony is that such people are involved in serious debate about something they usually know absolutely nothing about. Thus they tend to overemphasize physical characteristics that make a dog look tough, such as large head or a heavily built or stocky body. Most show people tend to go to the extremes in conformation, and we thereby get ridiculously straight pasterns, rear legs locked forward, and tight little compact feet. I recall a show person looking in horror at a picture of "Crosspatch"(the winner of a top field trial for bird dogs) and exclaiming how cow hocked the dog was. Well...performance is proof of the pudding, and if this person had ever seen a bird dog field trial. she would know that Crosspatch had to have strength, endurance and mobility in his hindquarters in order to win that field trial! So don't talk to us about conformation--especially in view of the fact that conformation people(ie. show dog people) bear the brunt of the blame for the cruel and dreaded disease called hip dyslpasia. "

    Richard Stratton - This is The American Pit Bull Terrier - Chapter 7

    There are still people breeding APBT's for their original purpose, there will always be people breeding APBT's for their original purpose. Trying to make a show dog out of an APBT is a terrible thing, I'd rather see them go extict than face that fate. :nono:
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2008
  9. xdogs

    xdogs Good Dog

    Now, I DO have one question.. if working ability is the most important to most people in this thread (vs show)... I am curious to know what y'all are doing to prove your dogs' athleticism and versatility in the public arena? I go first: we do agility, obedience and weightpull. Two of my dogs are UKC Ultra dogs, Morpheus is a Superdog and my dually registered AmStaff is two CD legs away from Superdog.

    Now.. I understand that it doesn't compare to hog-hunting and other real life applications... but it is better than nothing IMHO... so.. who is ready to jump in with their versatile activities outside of showing with the breed.
  10. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    @ Tat ~ nice post ... Thanks
    @ xdogs ~ that has been tossed around here in other threads a bit, and I would be willing to bet that this thread would go on an infinite number of pages and a vast majority would not agree on anything. It does make for interesting discussion though. Bottom line for me is as I have said, the registry or registry competitions is not going to ensure the preservation of a game bred dog breed in its pure form. It is impossible IMO.
  11. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    any competition that tests strength, endurance, drive, etc. is a far superior method of proving the dogs ability than the show ring. I'm training Bella for weight pulling.
  12. xdogs

    xdogs Good Dog

    I fully understand that there is nothing (else than...) that preserves the pure form, but when there are such strong feelings against conformation, I would like to hear what the people with such strong objections are doing to make sure that the structure and mentality of their dogs is any closer to the real thing than what the next person does.. unless they are also just going for looks.. just a different one.. which, excuse my opinion on this.. is no better.
    So, to all AST and staff infection nay-sayers.. what do you actively do to ensure that you have the real deal and are preserving breed type and form. There is no wrong answer, other than "nothing".
  13. BlueRose_Kennel

    BlueRose_Kennel Little Dog

    Don't know if my answer in what your looking for since I DO show and I put a pretty high value (for lack of a better word) on conformation but Hachi has her UWP title and 40 points toward her UWPCH. Were are also training her for competition obedience (which we are hoping will lead to agility competition!) and for obtaining her CGC.
  14. bahamutt99

    bahamutt99 Stealth ninja

    What? You mean we should breed for the complete package? Holy cow! :D

    Well, you know me. Loki is an Ultra Dog, working (slowly) towards her UCDX and her UAGII. Might get one more weight pull title on her, and would love to try out dock diving. Puppers are gearing up for weight pull, and will do the obedience and agility stuff later. If Priest is cool with water, he'd make an incredible dock diver. Terra, for all she loves to fly on and off the bed, she doesn't have confidence with jumping yet.
  15. xdogs

    xdogs Good Dog

    well.. and that is why I am asking; unless you ARE doing something with your dog.. you don't have the total package either, right?

    as far as the stringbean.. what kind of jumping doesn't she like? Shrimpy doesn't like walking.. when she is not in the air, I wonder if she might be sick, LOL... she is CRAZY, I tell you.
  16. Pipbull

    Pipbull Big Dog

    Just in regards to this, wanted to crosspost something I read from Carla/Sagebrush (not sure if she's a member here)

  17. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Register or don't register?
    That's the choices.

    If you register , you have to accept the registry's judges opinion / interpetation. ( Basically )

    Short of one attaining the qualifications of the registry's judges , & then judging based on one's own opinions , all that's left is to accept the opinions of one who is. ( Registry Judge )

    If you are able to decide for yourself , what the breed should look like , or perform like , then you don't need another's opinion.
    ( IE: Registry's Judge , Web Elitist 4-9-3-11 Heads , Critics who don't have a dog ranking higher than the one they're critisizing , etc. )

    In the case of Gr. Ch. Knuckles , the judges voted or gave him champion status , and therefore he is one , in the eyes of the registry & it's $PAYING$ members. Same with any other registry.

    Desrvingly? Depends on who you ask , but yes according to the opinions that mattered. ( Registry Judges )

    Same with being a good dog. ( Owner's opinion )

    It's so much easier to hate , than it is to congradulate , update & innovate.

    I doubt serious breed preservers look to GR.CH Knuckles or any conformation Titlist for guidance. I would expect them to do what THEY feel is best. I would also expect them to value the opinion of those who have thier line , over those who don't. ( JMHO )
  18. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

  19. bahamutt99

    bahamutt99 Stealth ninja

    Its weird about her. She will get a running start after the flirtpole and launch at a shallow angle to catch the lure. (Usually does quite well, too.) And if you saw that video I made of her, there were parts where she was flying up on me to grab whatever I was holding. But if she can't bounce off something, she will not jump straight up. If I hold a lure over her head, and she can't bounce off me to get to it, she gets very uncertain. She has some hesitancy about the springpole, because the hide is just over her head. She'd rather reach up and try to grab an edge of it. Wheras Priest is only happy if he's achieving at least 4' of ground clearance. LOL!
  20. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    " The fanciers who were ultimately responsible for gaining AKC recognition for the Pit Bull Terrier petitioned the AKC for the name"American Bull Terrier" but as there was already a Bull Terrier registered, which was a separate breed, the name was rejected. The fanciers were in limbo for several years, some favored "Yankee Terrier" (as seen in the advertisement from Dog World magazine), others "Staffordshire Terrier". It was decided they could not use the name "Pit Bull" as they were trying to pull away from the fighting-dog image. They were hard pressed to come up with a name that pleased all, and several different names were tried out along the way. It is interesting to note that one of the main selling points of these ads was the reputation the breed had as an outstanding child's playmate and protector.

    It is interesting also that the ADBA, which today strongly disassociates itself from AKC- registered American Staffordshire Terriers, even used the name "Staffordshire Terrier" for a while in their registry.

    The name Staffordshire Terrier was finally decided upon, and severalof the "fighting" breeders embraced the idea of AKC registration. The idea was that anything that would bring positive exposure to their dogs wouldbe worth whatever the ultimate cost. A committee headed by WT Brandon was delegated to go around the nation looking at Pit Bulls and to come up with a standard based on their observations. In the yard of John P Colby they found Colby's Primo, a dog they felt represented a sound, athletic dog. Primo was measured and observed by the committee, and the AKC standard was based in part on this dog. A picture of Primo was used to represent the standard of the Staffordshire Terrier for many years. It is interesting indeed to compare the modern day AKC show winners with the picture of the athlete Primo. The reader must make up his own mind as to how well the physical structure of the breed has fared through the years of show breeding.

    The Colby family registered their dogs with the AKC as a courtesy for about 3 years, then returned to UKC and ADBA registry only. Many of today's American Staffordshire Terriers can look to the Colby dogs as their foundation."

    Colby's Book of the American Pit Bull Terrier

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