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Ok all this talk about standard and registries

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by pitchik, Jun 13, 2008.

  1. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

    I was reading thru the thread about registries and such, and it looked as if it became a thread about the UKC standard, and breeding dogs that adhere to the standard, etc., etc..

    I have a question. A serious question.

    While I love the APBT to the fullest extent, I also have a prefrence when it comes to what I like. What I like is not what you may like, which is totally my prerogative. For instance, I love just as much to look at the "game dogs" as much as I love to look at "my dogs" however, if looking to purchase or own another APBT I would choose the "my dogs" ""LOOK"" before I would choose the "game dogs look". I know you know what I mean. I really can't elaborate more by typing.

    Anyways, I like how my Dixie looks. She has definatly taken on the structure and conformation of her granddaddy RE Throwin Knuckles.

    Now, Throwin Knuckles is a champion.

    I have had many a people from the APBT call Knuckles a mutt. Knuckles ONLY has his excellent champion status because he was/just happened to be competing against other mutts at the time of competition, "Of course the dog HAS to win when he is only the best in THAT competition at THAT time".

    Well, it takes many shows and a long, long time to compete to the point of winning championship status. I am sure that along the way at SOMETIME he had to have had some serious competition, and still won.

    It just confuses me, and contradicts alot of what people in the APBT community preach about. This dog has achieved the best of the best at his time legally in the UKC sanctioned ring, and to this day, is frowned upon.

    Is it because the RE has taken on a "bad rap" so to speak by creating American Bullies? Is it because he is not a "game dog" so to speak? Is there NO ROOM at all for a slight variation in the breed? Knuckles has also proven to be of wonderful temperment. Is that not what we strive for?



    And a few more questions.
    In todays society, we are obviously faced with "our breed" and BSL.
    Is it 100% wrong to say that changing the breed just enought to curb prey drive and aggression is a bad thing?
    An original ABPT game dog, with high drive, prey drive, and DA, is not at all a threat to society? By this I mean, I know there are breeders that still breed the original APBT. IF by chance, these dogs get into the wrong hands, is that not what causes some of the bad rap our breed is getting? A dog such as this is never raised around children, yet one day a child wonders up to it, and the dog bites. NOT because it is HA, but because it does not recognize the small child as a human, as the alpha, but instead is weary of it because it is small, and makes odd squealing noises, and pulls it ears or bats at it like a toy.

    I am just wondering for sake of conversation.

    If you take a "todays APBT" which has been diluted somewhere somehow. Though the APBT has been diluted, cant you also consider the prey drive and all aggressions be diluted as well? Thus making a sort of "safer pitbull"?

    If so, this is not what everyone can hope for?

    Like I said, sake of conversation. I just read alot of debates every day, and see several good points both from people who can be right as well as their points not totally right.

    It almost seems as some scientific maze/riddle going on. People want better, people want to protect, people want to restore, people want to conserve a great thing, but people, I dont think we can have it all. There has got to be some median.

    Ok, I'm done rambling.
    Let's hear some opinions.
  2. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

    20 replies and no opinions? Is it that lame of a post?:)
  3. Miakoda

    Miakoda GRCH Dog

    No. But Throwin' Knuckles IS a mutt.

    While you like your so-called "preferred look", the sad part is those whom you are supporting are breeding for all the wrong reasons.....head size, chest size, body weight, and money. And you've done the same. So in essence you are riding the name of the American Pit Bull Terrier because of the historical meaning it brings with it yet you are applying it to dogs that are no more APBT than the Yorkshire Terrier is APBT.

    And those of us who truly love the American Pit Bull Terrier are sickened and tired of people trying to change it just because they feel they are entitled to do so.
  4. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

    Now Mia you know I didn't do that! Dixies breeding had nothing to do with head size, chest size body weight and money. Because if it did, then Ida made out like a bandit instead of keeping all the pups!

    Anyways,so in your opinion, Knuckles is a mutt, and won, just because he is a mutt?
    In your opinion, my dogs are mutts as well?

    Ok, so, I know that in each and every litter, not all pups look the same. If one or two pups come out "bully" or "bullier" then the parents whom are original, even though it was a good breeding, do they have a right to be registered as APBT?
  5. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    I agree with Mia.. Knuckles is a mutt.. AMstaff at best. And nothing against the bully looks.. I mean look at my boy Folsom he's as bully as I can get and he's alittle too bully for my tastes. The top half of his ped is mostly Watchdog which is known as a bigger bully line but there are some Ch. and Gr. Ch. in there.. but the bottom half is game lines.


    The problem with calling dogs like Knuckles an American Pit Bull Terrier is that you perpetuate (sp) the thought that Huge heads and wide chests are what the APBT is supposed to be. Look at the kennels that breed dogs like Knuckles about everyone of them lists measurments of head and chest size as a selling point. When most people see Folsom they freak out about how pretty he is and 9 out of 10 times the first thing they comment on is the size of his head.
  6. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

    I'm not "supporting" them, I just like the look better.
  7. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

    I understand what you are saying. I think his head and chest really arent huge, but in proportion.

    But I understand what you are saying.
  8. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    It's actually a very good post...

    APBT's or Gamedogs "looks" is not an important factor in their breeding qualifications, "performance" is. Prancing them around the ring has no bearing on their quality as gamedogs IMO.

    Throwin Knuckles has a lot more AmStaff in his pedigree than APBT. AmStaffs are showdogs. I dont consider Throwin Knuckles an APBT, I consider him an American Bully. So compairing him to an APBT is apples and oranges. If you take the term literally, he is a mutt since they mixed APBT's, AmStaffs and who knows what else to get to him. Mutt isn't always a derogatory term, I call my Buffy a mutt, cause that's what she is. :rolleyes:


    Now if that's what you like, theres nothing wrong with that, just don't label it something it's not. I think that is what APBT get upset over.

    There is plenty of room for American Bullies, APBT's, AmStaffs, Staffs, etc. Just lets keep the lines from crossing and mislabeling one for the other.

    APBT's are APBT's because of their high drive, to change that or water it down so they "conform" better to todays society is just not the answer. Taking them out of the hands of people not qualified to own them maybe is.
    Any breed of dog can bite if not properly socialised, a properly tempered dog of any breed is less likely to bite a human even if not socialised. IT's when you start mixing good blood with junk that the temperament issues surface.
  9. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

  10. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

    My original post is questions, not all necessarily MY opinions.
  11. Arrowhead

    Arrowhead Good Dog

    Well, people do tend to loop anything with RE in front of it as a mutt because of the whole AmBully controversy I think. But, RE Throwin Knuckles wasn't bred by Dave Wilson...he was bred by Kimmar Kennels.

    I don't know, I've been irked about all of this for a while. My pup is related to RE Throwin Knuckes as well. I don't know if she's mixed or not. I know she's from old RE blood, not the new stuff. Is she just APBT and AmStaff? I have no idea...it's not like the originator is gonna step up and tell the real truth. He claims he did, but did he really? I know the new stuff is definitely mixed and there has been a lot of paper hanging going on.

    I think the whole RE controversy and all the mixing and paper hanging has unfortunately tainted the reputation of anything with RE in front of it in a lot of people's eyes. I do know there are a lot of dogs with RE in them that are winning dogs, but people still say RE dogs are mutts.

    I don't know what to think anymore...I've heard so much stuff it's totally mind boggling. I've heard ALL RE dogs are mutts, I've heard that the old RE blood isn't, I've heard ALL RE dogs are considered AmBullies, I've heard the old RE blood is considered APBT, etc... I really have no idea what to think anymore and am tired of beating my head against the wall trying to figure it out.

    When I 1st got Babe, I had no clue about all of this RE controversy. I didn't want a paper hung mixed breed dog. I wanted a pure bred so I would have some idea as to what temperament traits she would have. I certainly didn't want a mutt, 'cause you have no idea what you're gonna get as far as temperament goes. I personally don't feel it's right that any mix breed be papered with what is considered a pure breed registry either...so that leads me back to my question...is my dog a mutt? I don't know. I love her more than anything though and wouldn't give her up for nothin' so, at this point, that's all that matters to me now.

    What angers me is that a lot of AmBully breeders are breeding what they know are mutts and calling them APBTs...just to make a buck. It's sickening. I don't think it helps the APBT's already bad reputation in the public's eyes at all. When you throw together Mastiffs and APBTs and call them APBTs, that's not right. I've known a lot of Mastiffs to be HA. There is a big chance the pups will have the questionable temperaments all while being under the APBT name, which does nothing but add to the bad view of what people have of APBT's .

    It also pisses me off that these puppy peddlers are mixing in all these breeds and creating very unhealthy animals...just to make money. Nor do a huge percentage of them bother to do any health testing.

    I don't think any dog should be bred for looks alone. I think the TOTAL dog should be taken into consideration, but unfortunately a lot of AmBullies are being bred for looks alone and it's pathetic.

    I don't know what Dave Wilson had in his head when he decided to do what he did. All I know is that he sure screwed up along the way. I wrote him and asked him what the deal was and he never answered me back...so who the hell knows anymore.

    I just think this topic has been beaten to death and people are tired of it. I'm tired of the fact that my dog fits in no where to people...she's not bully enough to be AmBully (I was told this by the ABKC), she's not APBT and she's not AmStaff. She falls under the pit bull umbrella...that's all I can say.
  12. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

  13. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    Regardless how they "look" if every dog behind that litter is not a pure APBT they have no right being registered as such.
  14. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    When it comes to LOOKS... when I look at a APBT, I want to see an athlete. I want to see a dog that looks like I could put it in the box and they'd roll with the best of them. But when I see the bullies.. I just think man they are calling this dog an APBT and if you dropped him in the [ ] he'd never make it out..die of a heart attack or an asthma attack.
  15. maximusflys

    maximusflys Little Dog

    But you would support them by the comment you made in the first post saying if you purchase another APBT you would want the look you have now. Is that not supporting them?????
  16. Arrowhead

    Arrowhead Good Dog

    Before anyone quotes me as saying that anything with RE in front of it is considered a mutt and points out that the old RE line was a mix of AmStaffs and APBT and therefore, is a mutt or isn't a mutt...there are different lines of thinking on this (there always are). Some people think that since the AmStaff is just a type, APBTs and AmStaffs are the same. Plus, add to it that an AKC AmStaff is registered with the UKC as a APBT. Some people think that since the AmStaff has been bred different for so long that they're now a different breed. I guess it depends on your thinking...I've heard it played out both ways.

    All I know is, at this point, AmBullies should be considered their own breed and shouldn't be called APBTs.
  17. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

    I do not consider MY dogs to be mutts.
    When I hear RE now, I think of American Bullies.
    I consider old school RE to be APBT.
    And as far as supporting them, if I were to purchase another APBT, I would go for the look that I like out the litter-I would not go looking for a "bully" but would probably admire a more bully dog in the litter then the other structured ones.
    This post wasnt meant to be all about the RE dogs, I know the debate about Dave and the dogs that use the RE name.
    I was using Knuckles because I admire him and all his titles, and was wondering how so many can call him a mutt, and insist he should never have been bred if he indeed did outperform in competition all those who competed against him.
  18. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    But his competition was a mixed bag of other dogs and other Amstaffs. You can look at him and tell he's mixed with something.. he looks fat and out of shape in the pictures where he's posing with his ribbons. He should be labled what he is.. and he's not an APBT.

  19. Miakoda

    Miakoda GRCH Dog

    She did support them when she bred her puppy/young adult dog to a Peterson dog that looks like a red hippo. She supported them and supported herself by selling those puppies on hoobly.com.

    Pitchik, I'm not just trying to trash you. But you did what you did and you cannot hide from it. I'm glad you're proud of it, but the end result was a disaster for everyone involved in the APBT world....well, those who truly love the APBT and not the "looks" of a dog.
  20. DieselDawg

    DieselDawg Good Dog

    It is funny but there is no "game look" IMO. There is "confirmation" which is based on structure and there is "game" which is based on performance. You can't tell if an APBT is a purebred by just looks and you can't call a dog game by the same method.

    AmStaffs and APBTs need to be judged as two separate breeds IMO. Although they have some of the same blood running thru them, they are so different in structure they should meet different conformation standards.

    Love the dogs you have but take "breeding" them much more seriously...not pointing the finger at anyone...just a general statement.

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