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New to forum and to the breed

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by StevenNeill, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    Hello. My name is Steven. I am a tattoo artist from Texas and a hge dog lover. Recently my two full blooded labs were stolen from my studio's yard. I gave it a couple weeks to see if they would turn back up but whoever took em got away clean. So knowing how much I loved dogs my wife began looking for a replacement. After a couple of days of searching we stumbled on an owner of a litter of full blooded American Staffordshire Terriers...or better known as American Pit Bull Terriers. His full blooded Dam mated with his girlfriend's full blooded sire by accident and he did not want the litter. Neither did his girlfriend. So he put the pups outside in the cold in a makeshift kennel at 5 1/2 weeks of age. By the time we got there they were freezing and way too skinny and underfed. We took two of the pups from him...a black and white we named Jax and a Bluish Gray we named Blue. They are now part of our family...inside...and on a healthy diet. I have a lot to learn about this breed...how to train them...and how to bring out their full potential so I joined the forum in hopes of learning...making new friends and possibly finding a community for my pups. I know they tend to be a tad aggressive towards other animals and that is one thing I want to curtail early by lots of socialization. Any tips are appreciated. I did see Diesel's post with must read links and I will read those as time allows. Anyway...hope to get to know many of you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2012
  2. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Hello and Welcome !!! :)
     
  3. Kamdon

    Kamdon GRCH Dog

    Welcome.

    What did you do about the other dogs that were out there just freezing? Call animal control?

    Definitely check out all the stickies.

    Am staffs are not American pit bull terriers. It's a breed all by itself.

    Let me guess. The parents were huge or very large huh?

    You might have your hands on a am bully too.......

    Good luck.

    Post a lot of pictures
     
  4. MsAcer

    MsAcer Good Dog

    Welcome...
     
  5. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    :insanity:
     
  6. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    will be posting pics soon...the pics in my avatar are the pups. There were seven pups in the litter and five were taken. We took the two remaining. The breeder swid they were AmStaffs...full blooded but unpapered. He said they were colby bloodline. However I've done a lot of studying on the subject. From what I have heard colbys are pits...not AmStaffs...but there seems to be debate on whether those are the same bloodlines or not. From one perspective they are the same bloodline therefore the same breed. From the other perspective the bloodlines have been seperate long enough to have 2 separate breeds. It depends on who you believe as to whether this is one bloodline with two names or two bloodlines. Because I dont have papers or geneology I cant prove anything one way or the other except on what the breeder told me and what I saw. The parents were not huge dogs...maybe 60-70 pounds but i doubt they were 70. I know many say APBT and Am Staffs are separate breeds but just as many dissagree.
     
  7. _unoriginal

    _unoriginal Cow Dog

    Welcome.

    FYI, 70# is at the extreme (rare) upper end of the APBT scale. Most don't top 60#. They're not large dogs by any stretch, with the exception of compared to a chihuahua.
     
  8. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    I understand that but keep in mind I am just guessing. They were muscular dogs. My labs...before they were stolen were 62 and 68 pounds and though taller they were also leaner. Also keep in mind that some rare APBT have been recorded up to 111 pounds. A news report I watched today concerning an APBT that saved a woman being beaten in the street reported that the dog weighed 109 pounds. They showed the dog...it didnt LOOK 109 lbs to me but what the heck do I know?
     
  9. _unoriginal

    _unoriginal Cow Dog

    I'd like to see where a PUREBRED with pedigree APBT is 100#. It's not going to happen. It would have to be mixed with something else because the breed is 30-60#. A 100# "pit bull" is an American Bully or mastiff mutt. Even positive "pit bull" stories can have negative connotations by describing the breed as something it is not.
     
  10. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    You may be right. I don't know enough to argue with confidence. But I'll drop this link to see what you have to say here. I honestly don't know. - World's Biggest Pitbulls
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2012
  11. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    Here is another site that lists a number of champion APBT that are either close fo 100 lbs or in excess of it. Like I said...I am new to the breed so I dont onow enough to establish an argument so I have to go with what info I can find and here are two big breeders claiming papered champion sires and dams all in excess of what you say is impossible...I will assum e that even though these dogs are champions...you will say they are not APBT. In anticipation of that...I would ask...in the beginning...before the breed existed...and before AmStaffs existed...how did these breeds come about? It is my understanding...and I might be wrong...but it is my understanding that both the AmStaff and the APBT were created by breeding a Bulldog with a Terrier...and the type of terrier is in debate. Please correct me if I am wrong but with that understanding...even though the APBT is its own breed now...the true bloodline IS BY DEFINITION a bully. - Big Gemini Pitbulls
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2012
  12. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    You are finding what you want to see. None of those dogs are Champions ... at least not in the UKC and not as an APBT. But regardless, I don't see where they have championed out in any registry sanctioned events in any registry. Not saying they haven't but it wasn't in the UKC and not as an APBT and that is the registry they are said to be registered with. Purple Ribbon (PR) means nothing except that so many generations have been registered with the UKC. Nothing more.

    The "true bloodline" is not a fad breed created in 1990's by Dave Wilson and others and represented by the dogs you linked to LOL. They're AmBully ... not APBT ... well APBT on paper only and with the UKC.

    The old time dogmen got it right. Some screwed it up for greed, creed and fad, created a new breed and breed registry separate from the APBT and AmStaff and today, those dogs are not the "true bloodline". Nothing like it at all.

    Sure, these greed/fad breeders will still the ride the APBT coat-tails ... of course LMAO.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2012
  13. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Steve ... this is an APBT ...

    [​IMG]

    But that's old school ... there are some variations of the APBT within breed standards, but this is old school too ... My 15 month old Colby American Pit Bull Terrier. Line bred from dogs in the Colby family for over 110 years. Mason is an APBT too. Here's Mason's litter pedigree. You can click on individual dogs names and go clear back to the very beginning of the APBT breed in a straight line ... http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=388137

    Mason

    [​IMG]

    Me and Mason

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Mason is about 19 1/2 inches tall and about 44 pounds. He won't get much bigger
     
  14. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    Why are they not registered as AmBully? I am not trying to be argumentative or difficult...I honestly don't get it. If a dog is not an APBT how can he be registered as such? I am not a breeder and have no intention of breeding but I do want to understand the breeds and how they fit together. Is an AmStaff an APBT or not? There is a debate being argued by people much smarter than me. And on one side its...they are different breeds and your an idiot for thinking otherwise...on the other side its both breeds come from the exact same bloodlines and if you cant see they are the same breed you are an idiot. So how do you tell the difference? People say that dogs with dominant bully bloodlines are not APBT yet the APBT was created by mixing a bulldog and a terrier so others say they are just as much APBT as the many other bloodlines. The fact seems to be that there is no real consistency in defining these breeds which gives rise to arguments bawed on whatever standard each person sets. It is a concern for me. My dogs cost me nothing. I love them no matter what people may define them as...and if they are inclined I want to train them with agility and strength training. I would eventually like to compete them, s o I want to know what i have. Finding the answer though depends on who you talk to. The breeder told me one thing...and the appearance of the parents supports what he told me...but there are no papers to prove anything. Then I get here ane people are implying that they may not be what I was told they were. On one hand...that doesnt matter. I would have taken them anyway because of the situation they were in...on the other hand it does matter because I take pride in my dogs.
     
  15. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    Joe...that is a spectacularly beautiful dog. I hope mine look even half that good. The parents of my pups were a litte bigger I think. But not by much...maybe a little broader...but again...not by much.
     
  16. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Thank you for the kind and gracious words Steve. Only time will tell how Mason turns out.

    Damn if I know Steve. It's up to the registry to help maintain breed integrity IMO and well, the UKC will register just about anything as an APBT ... even APBT/AmStaff/AmBully crosses. Maybe it's a money thing, I don't know. Mason COULD be registered with the UKC but I haven't sent the paper work in. HE IS registered with the ADBA and been to one (1) sanctioned point show when he was 6 months old. Mason brought home 2 third place ribbons and 2 first place ribbons in his age class.

    They are two seperate breeds. Only a small handful of APBT bloodlines were chosen by the AKC in 1936 to form the AmStaff breed. The AmStaff never was or is representative of all the APBT bloodlines. For example ... while it is not unheard of for an AmStaff breeding to throw a red nose from time to time ... it is an AmStaff breed fault. Some of the greatest APBT's were and are red with red noses. So take a small handful of bloodlines and close the registry to all others, like the AKC did with the AmStaff and after 76 years, we now have two seperate breeds.

    Steve ... you have no paperwork and your dog isn't registered. You can't compete with the dog in registry sanctioned point events, but there are programs in registries where you can compete with a limited registration ... but there are no points toward breed championship and your dog must be spay/neutered.

    Without pedigree, you can't be sure of what you have Steve. Listen to all the opinions you like ... but remember ... there are those with opinions and those with experience. Listen to one and smile at the other.

    Do this Steve ... satisfy your thirst for knowledge. Do your own research and form your own understanding from facts (not the hype, brag, spin and spiel). You will then and only then know and call your dog what it is. But remember this Steve ... a good dog is where you find it and papers don't make the dog. Love and nurture your new best friend and you likely won't be disappointed :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2012
  17. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    Thanks for the honest reply Joe. I intend to work these pups to bring out thier best potential. Maybe someday I can get a papered pedigree that can compete but for now I am going to get the best out of these guys. I have a single pic in my album of them and me napping. I will take more tomorrow closer up and post them. I would then invite you to look at them and give your opinion of them. They are very young but perhaps you will have an opinion.
     
  18. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    There ya go Steve !!! Hell ... the best bulldog or bull & terrier I ever owned (I never called him by a breed name or even "pit bull") was a dog from unknown origin and pedigree. Rest in Peace Rowdy. You were loved and are missed buddy ...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. StevenNeill

    StevenNeill Puppy

    Another beautiful dog. I love that brownish red coat
     
  20. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    It's my favorite ... but the brindle and white is slowly growing me LOL.
    A dogs color should never be a primary consideration anyway. There's LOTS of things more important.

    Steve ... breed names are just made up registry names for dogs that registries have collectively assigned a standard to. There was no "APBT", until 1898 when the UKC came up with the name and registered the first one which happened to be owned by the registry president ... and in 1909 when the American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA) used the same name.

    Interestingly though ... the ADBA did not have a breed standard until the mid 1970's and only then because the ADBA started sanctioning conformation shows/events in the mid 70's. Before that time, the APBT was a working dog and regardless of size, competed in it's weight class ... in the pit.

    I think the more research you do ... you more you're gonna get back where you started LOL ... bulldog (though some "doggers" dog people only call the finest APBT, bulldawg ... the rest are "hounds", curs etc etc) ... bull & terrier ... or the generic name used (often improperly) by mainstream media and the general public ... "pit bull".

    ... and then there are the AmStaffs and AmBullys LMAO :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2012

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