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Need some opinions on two things

Discussion in 'Bull Terrier Training' started by tperez311, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. tperez311

    tperez311 Little Dog

    Okay, for those that don't know, I've had my two bullies for about a year and a half now, I've had Mia since she was 8 weeks old and Chico since he was 4 months old. Mia came from a home with 3 children and Chico came from a horse farm with all kinds of livestock. I have been taking them to the dog parks and had them around smaller dogs, children, adults, basically everyone and anything I can think of.... Other than cats...I hate cats... They have always been perfectly fine with everyone, just had a few weird issues...

    Issue 1: I had Mia and Chico both at a dog park and there was one other dog in the dog park, a smaller poodle mutt mix, and chico and mia were fine when introduced to her, the poodle came up to me while i was sitting on the bench and sat next to me and wanted attention, Mia came over and was really excited and started nipping her face and anytime after this mia was going after her, not growling but wanting to hold her down and nip her face.... I would tell her no and even hold her on her side and tell her no but she wouldn't get over it, she just didn't like this dog after a while... I'm wondering if this is a jealousy issue, or a protective issue? Mia is unaltered and this was a female dog. Mia is a jealous dog when it comes to attention, if Chico gets attention, Mia has to jump in the mix and try to get in between me and chico, or get attention when chico gets attention...Your thoughts?

    Issue 2: Chico has never shown any dog or human aggression to anyone ever, in dog parks he's been bit and dominated and never retaliated, he's been jumped on by small kids, played rough with adults, all of the above and never ever had an aggressive reaction to anyone....HOWEVER when he's DEAD asleep, in a deep sleep, and he's woke up suddenly by being moved or pushed, he's lashed out a few times and bit, he was this deep in sleep on the couch and mia jumped on him the other day and he did the same thing to her....SO I'm thinking a couple of things, is this normal ? I've started just calling his name to get him up and awake before moving him while he's sleeping, but then I started thinking maybe this is an aggressive behavior because I let him lay on the couch? Let me know your thoughts...Thanks Guys
     
  2. Azelgin

    Azelgin Puppy

    #1 - I would guess a protective issue. Everybody here already knows my opinion on dog parks, so, I wont say any more.

    # 2 - check out this link to see if it might be what you are dealing with

    http://www.btneuro.org/btneuro-old/shari_rage.htm
     
  3. tperez311

    tperez311 Little Dog

    WOW...this could be his problem.... This just recently started, and doesn't happen often, but I've seen it happen 3 times and its only when he's woke up by sudden grabbing or pushing or something like that, or when Mia jumped on him.... Euthanasia is mentioned here for this problem? I would never even think of that, that seems a bit extreme if its as mild as with what happens with Chico.... But if it turned into fits of rage that just triggered at any time, that would be different ... He's such a good boy and such a lover, I've seemed to have found that just making sure he's awake before you push on him or pick him up works fine, and its not really an uncontrollable rage that he goes into, he just kinda growls and lashes out, but then he's fine once he's "awake" .... My dad is sorta similar, kinda funny, but he can't be woke up abruptly or suddenly now that i think of it, he will react and either swing up or grab whoever wakes him up really hard...i have no idea why he's like that either...maybe this is something that is caused by something traumatizing in a human or a dog?

    "
    Of course the vet was consulted, and all manner of tests were run, without conclusive results. I kept careful records of instances of occurrence. The only conclusions ever reached were: 1) if her sleep was very deep, any sort of sudden awakening was apt to trigger an instance, and 2) extreme activity (hunting) resulting in extreme fatigue seemed to trigger an instance. "

    If you notice where it says any sort of awakening will trigger this rage, in Chicos case its just if he's pushed or jerked or picked up while he's in a deep sleep.... But thank you for this article, wow, thats crazy!

    Azelgin: I don't really know your stand on dog parks as I'm fairly new to these forums, Do you think its just one of those things that will happen and that you take the chance of happening when you have your dogs around unfamiliar other dogs? But If this continues with Mia, I won't be taking her to any dog parks...
     
  4. Azelgin

    Azelgin Puppy

    I wouldn't euthanize a mild case either. We had one that we made sure only slept where she couldn't be disturbed, and we made sure to wake her gentily. Did that for 10 years. You figure out what works and it's all good.

    I don't like dog parks because you have no control over the actions of other people's dogs and some of those people are idiots. The Bully breed always gets the blame when things go wrong.
     
  5. tperez311

    tperez311 Little Dog

    Another good idea, if he has a problem being woke up abruptly by physical force, then he only needs to be sleeping in his crate......Good Good Good simple ideas.... Thanks! It's good to know that you've had something similar and overcame or worked around it....Thanks for the confidence booster!
     
  6. Rogue Bullies

    Rogue Bullies Good Dog

    I think #1 might be more of a jealousy thing. My dogs do the same thing when one of them is getting attention the other one will come up and then sometimes they will nip at each other over it.

    Wow that's crazy on #2 I have heard of it, but much on it. Sounds like he may have that. This is why I try to stress to people to be very careful where they purchase a bull from. There are many other neurotic underlined conditions similar to this in the breed as well. You never know what underlined conditions the dog could have. Again why I say slapping to pure bred dogs together isn't all that should ever be entailed in breeding. Things like this are genetic. Having him sleep in a crate would be a good idea. I don't think its necessary to put a dog down for something like this unless its a real danger.

    I also agree with Azelgin's views on dog parks. Have you read this thread?

    Pit Bulls and Dog parks - General Dog Discussions

    I know they are not "pit bulls", but same rules apply IMO. I wouldn't take a dog to the dog park whether it be APBT or border collie. Just my opinion, to mahy stupid people and accidents waiting to happen.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2010
  7. Azelgin

    Azelgin Puppy

    Maybe so. I'm not used to assigning human emotions to dogs, but more and more research seems to show that dogs may have them. Could be the 30,000 years of living with us has rubbed off on them. Could also be a posessive issue: You are her property and she doesn't want to share. Kind of like a big juicy steak.
     
  8. Rogue Bullies

    Rogue Bullies Good Dog

    I agree with this, that is what I kind of meant by jealously. The dog wants you for himself. I guess I didn't explain it well.
     
  9. I never had any problems like Issue 1, but my BT did show some signs of Issue 2. It would only happen late at night. He would always start the night sleeping on the top of my bed covers, but in the middle of the night he would come up and stand over me and stare me in the face until I woke up. I would have to let him under my covers (especially on cold Canadian winter nights), and he would go down and sleep at my feet. If I moved or pushed him too much after he was in a deep sleep, he would growl, but he never nipped or bit (he was a great foot-warmer). He only did this when under my covers, not when on top of the covers or when napping during the day. I never thought much of it and he did not have any behavioural problems that appeared to be related to this.
     
  10. tperez311

    tperez311 Little Dog

    yeah with her im leaning towards the jealous possessive issue... but she's never been mean to another dog but yet now that i think about it, ive never really had a dog at a dog park basically jump in my lap and want to be paid attention to, but even after the dog was away from me, mia still didn't like her, i'm going to try her out at another park with more dogs, and see if the behavior is just towards smaller dogs or if it recreates, she may not be able to go to the dog park anymore :(

    ---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ----------

    that being said, if its jealous or possessiveness (if thats a word) , is this sometihng that can be curbed?
     
  11. Azelgin

    Azelgin Puppy

    I've got a wiener dog that's like that, but a disgruntiled growl is as far as it goes. The bitch we had would wake up in full "battle mode", if rudely awakened from a deep sleep. Big difference in behavior from just being grumpy. To get her up, we would call her name until she opened her eyes and we were sure she was awake.
     
  12. Mardi

    Mardi Puppy

    Hi. Startled or aggressive upon awakening isn't really considered "rage," thank goodness. Ifyou privately email me, I can send you some links so you can see that it's not: your dog seems to have a very drastic startle response. The best way to manage this already has been mentioned: use a sound or vibration or something to alert your dog that you are around and wait until he opens his eyes; don't let your other dog near him when sleeping or, best of all, have him sleep and nap in the crate to keep everyone, animal and human, safe. But as you've described it, it's not rage (idiopathic aggression).
     
  13. Mrpedigree

    Mrpedigree Big Dog

    Dog parks or parks in general always remind me of what a prison yard is like....there will always be a fight over something :D
     
  14. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    scarlett is like that when shes sleeping too. shes mainly like it in her cage, shes like possessive over her sleeping space. shes never done it to me, but its like shes worried another dog is going to step on her while shes sleeping. rage is something they cant really snap out of, if i yell at scar for snapping at the other dogs when she gets woken up she immediately knows why i hollering at her.
     
  15. StudioSRV

    StudioSRV Little Dog

    A friend of mine had a husky that had done that maybe 5 times ever in its life (he was 12) but one day he did it when her little 14 month old son walked over to pet the dog when he was sleeping. It wasn't as bad as it could have been, but he did lose part of his index finger :(

    I think lots of dogs do this if they are just sleeping deeply and then startled...I don't think it is necessarily because of a genetic condition.
     
  16. tperez311

    tperez311 Little Dog

    well issue number one is probably mia not being able to be around smaller nervous dogs that aren't used to being around bigger dogs or smaller dogs that just get nervous and shy away or start to run away ... we were at the dog park again today and a lady brought her chihuahua in, and mia and the dog were fine for a second but the dog started to get nervous with mia trying to sniff her butt and started to run away from mia and mia chased her and was trying to hold her down :( im not sure if its the smaller dogs kicking in her prey drive and her wanting to pounce and hold them or if its just the nervous excitement, but its starting to look like she cant be around smaller nervous dogs....she was fine with every other larger dog there.... and i've seen her be fine with smaller dogs that were used to being around bigger dogs
     
  17. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    she might just need more socialization a lot of dogs just dont understand little dogs, get a shock collar and that way you can correct the ruff behavior at the park.
     
  18. tperez311

    tperez311 Little Dog

    yeah im not sure what it is but she really doesn't care for little dogs anymore.... she immediately runs up on them and tries to dominate them and when they run away she wants to pounce....but around dogs the same size or bigger she is fine with...she gives them her belly and submits to them .....

    ---------- Post added at 08:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

    also havent had an episode of chico lashing out while being abruptly woke up.... calling his name and getting him awake before moving him has worked fine ....
     
  19. Rogue Bullies

    Rogue Bullies Good Dog

    Sometimes once bullies get on about something they don't like to give it up. Ranger for example hates american bulldogs due to a bad experience with one at one point. She may be relating the experience to the time with the little dog and repeating what she did.
     
  20. tperez311

    tperez311 Little Dog

    you're probably right.... i just put her on the leash as soon as i see one of the smart genius people bringing the smaller dogs into the big dog park....it has a sign on it for 40-80 pounds for a reason....and people just have to bring their toy chihuahuas and little ankle biters in there..... so you're all most right, all kinds of IDIOTS at the dog parks... but chico and mia love to go to them to see other dogs and see other people and kids
     

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