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Merle and Breeding

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by TonyOwen, Jan 31, 2011.

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  1. Blaze N' Pits

    Blaze N' Pits Good Dog

    John P. Colby with son, Louis B. Colby and Goldie October 1922.

    The only color reference I've been able to find is 'red' but not sure if that's even accurate as I seen it on an online ped. site.

    The reason I posted this is to see what you all think about it.
    To me, it looks merle.... The pic is taken in bright sun, no shadows on any of the Colby's (including their dog except on her chest and legs). You can clearly see the two different shades of color, the darker overlaping the lighter.

    I'm also wondering what ColbyDogs may be able to find out through Lou. about this picture although he was obviously a young child at the time... but maybe Lou might have his fathers detailed notes on Goldie since John was known for his amazing record keeping..... ?

    ---------- Post added at 02:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 AM ----------

    And I was told that in one of Richard Stratton's books there is a pictured merle named John Wayne 1962..... I do not own any R.S. books as of now and have never seen this pic. If any one knows what I'm talking about and has a pic... please share.... I'm sure I'm not the only one interested since others have asked for pics.
  2. ColbyDogs

    ColbyDogs Big Dog

    Goldie was not a merle.

    They have never produced a merle dog....EVER ! Nor have they bred, owned or produced Blues or Red noses.....EVER !

    You can get a grayish tint on a brindle dog, through the speckled coloring of tans & browns mixed with black creates a shadowing. It actually looks more of an olive green color than a gray. But rest assure, it is not blue nor is it gray, just a really unique brindle pattern. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, in the later pages of Louis book, there is a dog in one of the photo's that has the olive green look im talikng about, but its nothing more than a lite tan, brown and black brindle colored dog.
  3. Blaze N' Pits

    Blaze N' Pits Good Dog

    Would you be able to find any other pics of Goldie so I can see maybe a diff. view of her or something. That pic. really does make her look like a merle.... not saying I don't believe what you're saying... But can you see what I'm saying? Even though she may not be, the pic makes it look like she's has a darker color overlaping the lighter color.
    And there are so many brindles in Colby's book... I'm never gonna be able to notice the right dog you're talking about lol. Do you know the name of the dog?
  4. ColbyDogs

    ColbyDogs Big Dog

    That is a shadow, there is another picture of Goldie in the book.

    And when I locate my book, I'll tell whatpage and dog it is that I am refering to.
  5. ganja

    ganja Good Dog

  6. TonyOwen

    TonyOwen Little Dog

  7. ColbyDogs

    ColbyDogs Big Dog

    I take it back, no other picture of Goldie in the book....was thinking about another dog.

    Also, high gloss fur coat on a dog plays wonderful tricks in the sun light, especially when you are looking at a black and white photo.
  8. Blaze N' Pits

    Blaze N' Pits Good Dog

    ColbyDogs- Can't seem to find another pic of Goldie in the book.... I checked the Index and she is like the only dog not listed lol.

    Ganja- The face looks the same.... I think this may be another pic. of Goldie... thanx for sharing. And I'm still unsure of what her coat color is as it doesn't say in Colby's book (from what I've found).

    ---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 PM ----------

    Oh and if that is a pic of her.... def. doesn't look merle in that one lol. I just thought I'd post the prego pic of her cuz it looked questionable....

    ---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

    It sure does lol.... I hate the fact that there were only black and white photos back then.... makes things confusing sometimes and you really have to rely on honest record keeping.
    Is that link Ganja posted also Goldie?


    Ganja I don't see a merle dog there at all

    this is an vintage photo of a merle pinscher that were bred in Germany they were eventually all culled due to serious health effects to the breed
    . [​IMG]

    ---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------


    ---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

    A merle coloring is very distinctive i believe even if its in black and white or sepia

    ---------- Post added at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------

  10. Blaze N' Pits

    Blaze N' Pits Good Dog

    Ok lets get this clear.... Ganja wasn't posting that link trying to say that dog is merle. I'm guessing Ganja was confused and thought someone mentioned that dog being brindle...no one said that.
    He posted that pic thinkin that it may be another legit pic of Goldie.... if you scroll up I posted a preg. pic of Goldie... that looked, in that pic, that she could have been merle. She is not merle... and Ganja posted another pic of her to show that. Ganja did not post that pic claiming it to be merle.


    I was replying to ganja not attacking her...and my reply was I don't believe that dog is merle period not even according to that photo posted
  12. Blaze N' Pits

    Blaze N' Pits Good Dog

    And personally with black and white pics, I don't think merle is as distinctive as you say. These are two pics in black and white where the dogs look like they may be merle but aren't. Black and white pics can be very tricky, especially when it involves shading.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    ---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------

    I never said you were attacking Ganja... I was just clearing up what I thought Ganja meant by the post... cuz you and another person thought Ganja was meaning to post that link saying it was merle when they were just sharing another pic of the same dog I posted.
  13. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    That would be a very valid concern. IF I had ever had a merle Dane. Which I never did.

    Furthermore, I purposely breed for a more rangy dog. If you will notice, my pure Lonzo dogs are rangy too. I have found that on thr whole rangy dogs are better athletes.

  14. Blaze N' Pits

    Blaze N' Pits Good Dog

    ABK people that don't agree with merle are going to pick your dogs apart. This isn't the first time you've had conversations like this before. People are wanting to see pics and evidence of the eldest known merle within the APBT breed... although that still won't proove it to be purebred.... they're wanting evidence and not opinion... which I can completely understand. I'm on the fence about the subject... there's just not enough proof to claim them purebred or not as of now because the proper research hasn't been done.

    I know it's not my site and I'm not a moderator or anything... but I just thought I'd make it a point that litterally above this thread it states, "This is not a place to post complaints about specific breeders." Concern is different... but complaints get tiring to read IMO.
  15. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    I agree Blaze, they will.

    I respond is simply for the folks who do not know "both sides of the story." As you say, there is evidence for both opinions but not enough proof to tip the scales definitively either way.

    I just do not care to hear people spouting their opinion about merles being mixed as fact. They don't know that. They weren't present at the breedings. It's just an opinion they have. And they are entitled to their opinion. But I don't like to see it presented as fact. I have done 14 years of study about the merle allele. This does not mean I know it all by any means, but I dare say have done more interviews & collected more data that most people who present the "merles are mixed" opinion combined. And I have found proof some merles ARE mixed. But I have not found proof ALL are. And I simply want to put that out there for those who do not know.

    For those who have their mind made up, I do not respond for their sake. There would not be enough evidence in the world to convince some of these people. But those people I don't really care much about. They don't put a roof over my head, put food on my table, buy my meds or take care of my dogs. Most of them are nobodies, average joes like me, some nothing more than keyboard warriors who like drama. And I know this. It's unlikely I'm going to change their mind & it's unlikely they'll change mine. I simply respond to put the "other" side of the argument out there for those who do not know & so they will not be misinformed by a crowd who may only have half of the story.

  16. TonyOwen

    TonyOwen Little Dog

    You JUST admitted theres not enough facts for either end yet you STILL breed merles?
  17. Blaze N' Pits

    Blaze N' Pits Good Dog

    ABK... I'm wondering if you're able to provide the eldest known merle APBT recorded with maybe some pics? I don't really mind if it was in the pit fighting era or not... I'm just curious to see the eldest, picture documented merle APBT (that you may know of). Or the eldest merle farthest back in one of your dogs lines... like Lonzo that you mentioned, since you've probably researched that line the most (???).
    I was also told that there's a pictured dog in one of Richard Stratton's books named John Wayne that is a merle.... but I don't own the book and haven't been able to find a pic of that dog online anywhere.... maybe you have that?
    Basically I'm after any old type pics of merle APBTs just for my own personal research.... not to proove anything. If you have anything and don't want to post it here you can PM if ya want.
  18. ColbyDogs

    ColbyDogs Big Dog

    But the sales of the rare merles do.
  19. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    Tony: No, there are not enough facts for either end. There is evidence for both the mixed camp & the anti-mixed camp. Which is why I have always stressed know your line! For example, the Madison line is mixed. Others have not proven to be. Until my line has proven to be mixed, I will breed & use them.

    Blaze: The oldest known merle picture that I have been shown was Wallace's Hillbilly. It is a B&W pic & he is a brindled merle, so it is tough to see. If I find his pic again, I will post it. The Stratton dog is John Wayne & he is a blue merle. He is pictured on pg 155 in the book "The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier." I don't have the pic, but have seen it. I don't have the book either, but maybe someone who does can scan the pic for us.

    I have researched the line & the merle in my line does not come from the Lonzo line. My original merle was a Blue Bully & Bullyson cross. Something I find quite ironic considering I also had a heavily Carver bred merle once.

    If you want, feel free to PM & I can send you any info I might have that you may be looking for.

    ColbyDogs: Sorry my dear. I hate to burst youre bubble but I don't sell "rare merles." From '99 until now all my merles were either kept here or placed on S/N contracts for $150. If I place any intact merles, they sell for $300, same as their non-merle littermates. So no, they're not even paying for their own dog food, let alone putting food on my table.

  20. ColbyDogs

    ColbyDogs Big Dog

    Sorry, I forgot, in your breeding program merles are the norm and not so rare after all.
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