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Merle and Breeding

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by TonyOwen, Jan 31, 2011.

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  1. TonyOwen

    TonyOwen Little Dog

    I would be concerned about the merle, i have seen and read where more often than not "merle apbts" have serious temper problems as well as other faults such as blindness, deafness etc. With that said merle is not a color found in pure lines, not saying you ever claimed yours was but it does make me raise questions which i will choose to not ask since this thread is already heated enough. I just hope your pups are healthy and will remain that way!


    ***Split from other thread***
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2011
  2. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    Tony Owens: As a breeder, owner & student of merle APBTs & the merle allele in general, please let me respectfully point out a few things.

    Merle APBTs do not have any more temperament problems than any other color. If poorly bred, the dog can have an undesirable temperament, but that can go for any color. Sadly however the man who produced the most merle dogs was a BYB who did not care for one whit for anything but money. So several of his dogs DID come out with bad temperaments. But that had nothing to do with the mere allele, but rather the poor breeding practices of the breeder.

    Properly bred merles are no more unhealthy than dogs of most other colors. Double merles, that is a dog from 2 merle parents can have an increased risk of health defects, to include blindness or deafness. But this is not a "merle only" risk. Health defects are also associated with other colors; such as blue, blue fawn, white & black. In fact, colors such as blue & blue fawns are actually banned in certain kennel clubs due to health defect being associated with those colors!

    However, proper breeding can eliminate virtually all defects in any color, to include merle. For example, I have owned & bred merles for well over a decade. I've likely had more merles than I can count on my fingers & toes & never once had a dog that was blind or deaf, nor have I had a dog that ever had any physical disability arising from the merle gene.

    As for merle not being a color found in "pure lines" as of this writing that is purely your opinion, not a proven fact. The ADBA states that merles have been in the breed since it's inception in 1909 & the UKC also registered merles until only recently & merle is still accepted by the overwhelming majority of kennel clubs.

    Now are there some mixed bred merles? YES!!!! But there are also mixed bred brindles, whites, blues, blacks & red/rednoses. Once again it comes back to the integrity & breeding practices of the breeder as to whether your dog is purebred or not, not the coat color.

    I hope this has been of some help. :)

    YIC
     
  3. Schwe

    Schwe Good Dog

    How are you achieving this? Are you culling strongly? What criteria are you breeding/culling on?
     
  4. TonyOwen

    TonyOwen Little Dog

    Show me one merle APBT whether in a legit article or picture form that isnt recent, lets say since the breed was established until 1950. If you can do so, i might believe a little more but merle is a fairly dominate gene and if the breed had it, there should be some report some where since the time of the breed itself or shortly therefore after.

    Also, another thing is if it simply opinion that i say merle is not a color for a purebred APBT than it is also true that it is YOUR opinion it is a color for a purebred because if it was proven 100% i was wrong, you would have simply told me i was.

    From my understand Merle is an incomplete gene that creates the color pattern. Incomplete genes can create neurological problems.

    Another reason i question is because you bring up the color of the nose which has nothing to do with anything. Most people with inexperience will say i have a red nose this or blue nose that. Maybe its just something you say but for me, it creates a worry for the pups and breed given your a breeder.

    Also coat color can create question as to whether or not a dog is a purebred or cross. If you say have a X breed, and X has been around for 100 years in black, white and brown then all of a sudden someone says "I HAVE A RARE BLUE BRINDLE X!!!" that creates a major problem. Now, am i saying that is exactly what your doing? No. But unless someone can give me solid evidence that Merle is an APBT color, i beg to differ based on my knowledge and experience.
     
  5. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    Sorry i have not been on here. I have been busy running back & forth to Dr.s appts & the like.

    Schwe: Yes, I cull if I have to. But thankfully in 13, almost 14 years I haven't had any serious defects whatsoever due to the merle allele. Most breeders of merle dogs of any breed will tell you that simply breeding a healthy merle to a healthy non-merle will beget you heathy pups of both patterns. Of course however they are still examined by vets. In fact, I have a trip to a cardio clinic in the works for my guys this year.

    PeanutsMommy: Thank you for your kind words. I think puppies of any kid are adorable! :)

    CynthiaATL: They're BFKC registered. And my AADR dogs were registered when TL Williams still owned the KC. As you know he is a real dog man as is Mr. Mimms. If either would have had a problem with merle I'm sure they would have declined to register my dogs.

    CrazyK9: Well you are partially correct. The sire is BFKC/AADR. The dam is BFKC/AADR/ADBA. Also, the sire carries heavy ADBA blood.

    luckilylovinlyfe: I agree - I don't think I've ever seen an ugly puppy! I'm not a big fan of dogs like Lhasa Apsos & Shih Tzus, but they're still cute as pups! :)

    Tony Owns: Wallace's Hillbilly is said to be a brindled merle. Or you can go by what the ADBA says. They've researched it & say the pattern has been in the breed since at least 1909. BTW, the ADBA has even awarded a merle the title of conformation champion & she was even going to be a Gazette cover dog.

    Now does this mean all merles are purebred? NO!! Does it mean all merles are mixed? NO!! There are a bunch out there who are mixed. There are a handful out there who are pure. But both types exist.

    As for the merle pattern itself (it is not a color but rather a pattern) it is completely dominant to non-merle & but is called an "incomplete" dominant b/c it does not dilute the whole coat, but rather only parts of the base coat. However, merle needs eumelanin to be expressed. If merle is coupled up with a phaelomelanistic coat, the pattern will not show. Merle can also be hidden by another pattern, such as the brindle pattern. These are called "phantom" or "cryptic" merles.

    Now merle in it's homozygous state can result in defects, to rarely include neurological ones. However once again, that goes back to bad breeding, not the allele itself. No responsible breeder would breed merle x merle in the first place & this the majority of defects can be averted by simply not breeding merle x merle. This applies also to other dilution factors as well, so it is not a "merle only" thing.

    As for nose color if you will note I mentioned several COLORS that are known to be mixed, to include red/rednose. I never said red/rednose was a bloodline.

    But I agree 100% that color can create the impression on whether a dog is purebred or not. The great dogman Howard Heinzl was of the strong opinion that BLACK was not a bulldog color & black dogs were mixed. At one time, the ADBA almost banned black & tans. So I guess when it comes to deciding on purity or not using color, the impression is in the eye of the beholder! ;)

    Oh well. I just wanted to post some cute puppy pics not start a war. Next time I will make sure to post a disclaimer with my posts! ;)

    YIC
     
  6. TonyOwen

    TonyOwen Little Dog

    ABK there is no war, simply healthy debating. In the end, you breed Merle so therefore you will fight for the fact it is a pure color for the breed. Maybe your right, maybe im right. Naturally im going to go with myself because i wouldnt debate something i didn't myself believe in. As stated in my first post i do hope your pups are healthy and will continue to be healthy and live a long, healthy life.

    From my understanding Wallace Hillbilly hasnt been proven on either side of the debate as to what color it is. I also would say if the color existed prior to popularity there should be a handful of pictures or atleast documents stating Merle has existed, whether its documents stating they were culled or shown. Its a dominate trait that wouldn't have just appeared randomly after so long of breeding. Not without some kind of documented evidence they were at least culled.

    Your smart, my intentions here were pure. Setting aside your views and my views, i think we can safely say we wont agree on this particular subject. At least not now. Hope your pups grow healthy and next thread of yours posting pictures i will try to be more positive in words if i reply! :)
     
  7. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    If you say so ABK. You keep saying that. Oh if this dogman had a problem with Merles they would not have picked him or register him. But ask that same dogman about them. I have asked a few. And the overwhelming response was mutts.

    However the more reputable kennel clubs do not. Also from what I was told the AADR would rather not but since it was already established they kept it.

    Again any kennel club that would take a dog with no papers with 3 people saying "oh that looks like pit" and register it as pure bred and allow pups to be registered. That Is about money. I talked to T.L. about registering a dog before and he said yea send in pics and I will register him. I had NO papers and it was a stray. I did not register him. That in itself is questionable. And shows what drove him. It was the money. T.L. would register anything.

    Now BFKC. Again it I also feel it is about noting but money. They do not do anything as far as I know but just take people's money and send them a piece of paper.

    Again they are cute. But I would not own one unless it was a rescue.
     
  8. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    TonyOwen: Yes, we can agree to disagree. :) But please note I have never said, not will I ever say all merles are purebred. Most are not. But a small % are, at least according to the main governing kennel club for the breed. But again, I do agree most are mixed.

    CynthiaATL: I will keep saying it. If they had a problem the kennel clubs or judge could have denied him. But they did not & all were serious dogmen who know more about dogs in their little fingers than we do in our whole bodies put together. As such, with all due respect I will take their opinion on the matter over yours.

    And I note you said "the overwhelming response was mutts." Overwhelming does not = all. So let's say out of 99 dog men who said no, you got 1 yes & that 1 yes is all you need. All you need is 1 cryptic, 1 mutation, 1 merle kept as a pet & the gene could have been retained (albeit very rare) in the gene pool.

    But you & I have hashed this out before. You hate my dogs plain & simple. I myself go with the facts. Are there mixed merles? YES!! In fact are most merle mixed? YES!! But ... there is also small % who have not been proven to be mixed & until they are, all the accusations & snide remarks of yourself & others are nothing more than hot air. :(

    YIC
     
  9. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I do not hate your dogs. I have an opinion on merle dogs and the APBT. But I do not know your dog's to hate them. I am sure they are good dogs. The one I met was a sweet girl ( she was a brindle dog). So do not confuse the two.

    Now again you take it as they accepted it. Well again the OLD AADR would register anything it is appeared to look like an APBT. With NO proof of what it was. He was going to register a stray I had if it appeared to be a APBT. And allow pups to be registered.

    And the one time FB placed your dog at a show. He may have been the best looking dog at that time. But I bet you he would not take that dog home and use it in his program. And he is one of the ones I asked about Merles. Asked him in LA last year. Now he did not say mutt but he is not convinced that other dogs haven't been introduced. Came up in the blue dog conversation.

    Now on to BFKC He is registering your dog to take your money. The BFKC does not do anything other then take your money and send you a piece of paper. No shows, nothing. It is a side business. Which is fine. And I believe one of the only ones that still list certain accomplishments.

    And on to another registry you use the laughable CKC.

    There are also facts that prove the other side. But you choose to ignore that because you breed them. Lol funny this is one of the only sites that you post pics on now. Well that is what I has seen. Why is that?

    Again I do not hate your dogs. So please do not think that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2011
  10. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    *sigh*

    Why must we go round & round again?

    As a dog show person you know FB did not have to place Brody. And he did not place him once. He placed him twice. But if he finds merle unacceptable we could have been dismissed. I have seen dogs dismissed before & you know as well as I that there is no rule saying a judge must place a dog. A judge can withhold a ribbon if they see fit even if the dog is the only dog in the ring. But I will keep on showing him & perhaps his daughter to see what the results will be. Hopefully they will continue to be good. :)

    When IDK when you talked to TL, but when registered with the OLD AADR, the dog had to be previously registered through another kennel club & you had to submit a copy of the papers as well as a pedigree. I've never heard of this "show me pics & bam you're in" thing. Maybe it is something he insituted after I dualed my dogs with them, IDK.

    As for BFKC, you are correct, they are nothing more than a record keeping agency. And yes, they still print certain accomplishments on their pedigrees. Maybe it's b/c it is still run by a dogman. But I do not believe they would fraudulently register a dog as an APBT if it were not. He doesn't make enough money from me to do that. Registration is for an adult dog is what - $15 a dog & litter fees $1 per pup? So I don't think he is terribly money hungry to profit off merles! :lol:

    As for CKC, what of it? We have no other gamedog club here or nearby. No ADBA. No AADR. So CKC is the only avenue where people in my area can still show & pull if they do not want to travel all over God & creation. All the dogs I've met at any CKC event were ADBA anyway, so what's the harm? Doing some sport is better than doing nothing & if CKC is holding it, who cares? Only a fool would refused to show & pull against quaility competetion & have a good time with other dog people just b/c of an acronym. Bottom line is whichever way you want to cut it CKC (& AADR for that matter) has not done nothing more than ADBA hasn't already done. To be critcal of one, yet not be critcal of the other is just plain, flat out hypocricy.

    But that is JMHO on that.

    YIC
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2011
  11. Boogieman

    Boogieman Good Dog Premium Member

    OK I've stayed out of this since this thread got butchered and posts deleted that were actually on topic, (comments on the puppy pics) but I've had all I can take.

    The USDO show your dog placed in was a joke. You stand on this pedestal that your dogs placed at a show. YEAH RIGHT! There were what, 30 dogs total at that show? (if that) Considering there are 16 classes that's an average of 2 dogs a class!! So OBVIOUSLY your dogs gonna place!!! Don't give me that happy horse shit of "a judge can with hold a ribbon" either. In all my show experience it's NEVER , NOT ONCE been done. If there's 3 dogs in the class, they get something. I've seen 100lb bullies get a ribbon at an ADBA show because there were only 3 dogs in a class. I guess that gives them the right to go brag how their dogs are pure bred and conform to the standard. :lol:

    Before anybody gets bent about my post let's all remember, ABK is the one talking off topic here and I responded. The OP opened the door for comments on the subject.

    It is what it is. Love your dogs if you wish. Sadly, breed them if you want, but quit with the crying because others know the truth and don't agree with your practices.

    BTW what did you breed before you started breeding mereles 10 years ago? Why not clue the board in on that since you claim I'm a breeder of color!!
     
  12. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    Ah ole Boogie. It was only a matter of time before you showed up again to attack once more. For the record I did NOT go OT for you to come here & attack me & my dogs (yet again). I posted #54 to answer some questions. I guess in hindsight I should have answered them in PM to keep you & your ilk from seizing this chance to harass another member yet again.

    The USDO show I went to was NOT a joke. There were dogs & dogmen there that would put you & your dogs to shame. All the dogs (that I know of) were ADBA reg. But yes, I agree in some KCs some dogs will get a ribbon for just being in the ring. But I have also seen ribbons with held, as well as dog dismissed by a judge with my own eyes. Maybe some of the other KCs out there are stricter then your beloved "give to all" ADBA hmmmm?

    I spoke to USDO concerning merle & they said it was "judge's discretion" on whether to place a merle or not. Guess what - he placed - under a dogman who knows more about these dogs in his little finger than both of us together. Twice. Now will he place again? Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell.

    But I will continue to love my dogs & I will continue to breed them. But I also will continue to correct other who *think* they know the truth.

    As for myself, I hate to disappoint but I never bred any other breed of dog before I bred APBTs. I wanted to breed Danes as my ex-fiancee owned a Dane who was a great dog. He passed away before I got my APBTs & this can be proven. But I never got to breed Danes myself & although I hated to do it, I in fact decided to get rid of the Danes I owned b/c I knew ignoramuses like yourself would try to make accusations. So I guess my merles are GD crosses now huh? Out of a black female, a mantle female & a mantle male? lol.

    Have fun hater.

    YIC
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2011
  13. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    No while BKFC is cheap to register but it pretty much pure profit. How much do you actually think those pieces of paper cost? And you can say he is dogman because he lists certain accomplishments. No he knows there is a market and some people want that. It is called a business.

    Again some people actually know. You can fool these people on this site. But again I really do not see you posting pics on others. Because you know the response you will get.

    And to answer your question Boog she bred blue dogs. And is very knowledagble on them. If anyone has questions. Ask her. To some she may seem like a fad breeder.

    So when you sell them do you know what they are doing? Any accomplishments? Are they pets to the buyers? I know another member has seen your advertisements? Just wondering?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2011
  14. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    I will agree BFKC is pretty much profit. But what KC isn't? And I say he is a true dogman b/c he has done, seen & made contributions to the American gamedog that none of us ever will (pre '76 of course).

    As for blue dogs, Cynthia, you are as clueless as Boogieman. I have only owned one blue dog in the whole 13 years I have been in the breed (well 2 now that my spouse has Judah) & she was bred one time & I didn't even keep any of her blue offspring! And just a bit of GWI, my blue bitch's sire was black & her dam was red with a blacknose.

    If you're going to hate, get an effing clue people. :rolleyes:

    YIC

    EDIT: And yes Cynhia, if it makes you feel better, I keep DO in contact will any buyers of my dogs if possible. I do check up on any accomplishments how the dog turned out etc. I still keep in contact with people who bought dogs off the very first litter I had.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2011
  15. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    EDIT x2: I'm sorry, I forgot to answer your questions about pictures Cynthia. I post them here b/c this is more of a "pet bull" site & I *thought* would be more appreciated here. All I want to do is share pics of cute pups. If I want to chat game dogs, I go to GD.com.

    Also, I wanted to add, it's pretty tacky when the mods & their buddies are breaking the forum rules:

    7: Be respectful. This is harder to define, but will be moderated. An example would be disrespecting pit bull owners who chose a blue dog over a red dog, and "sneering" at them or acting like they're idiots for the choice they made. If a moderator believes you are being purposefully disrespectful to a fellow member, you will be notified. Bashing for the sake of bashing will not be tolerated. (underline mine)

    http://www.pitbull-chat.com/?page=rules

    You & your friends might want to brush up on that sometime.

    I bless you both in spite of.

    ---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

    Nah. Too DA. But good idea though! :lol:

    YIC
     
  16. Boogieman

    Boogieman Good Dog Premium Member

    LOL Attack you and your dogs? Why is it presenting facts and the WHOLE truth is attacking? Oh and YES you are the one who veered off topic, so yes I will respond. The show was a fucking JOKE! Like I said MAYBE 30 dogs showed up. Every single dog there placed by DEFAULT, Including your merles. The point, in case your too silly to grasp it, is you're using your dogs placing at a show as a tout to gain credibility for them. Again, EVERY DOG that showed up at that show placed BY DEFAULT because there wasn't enough dogs to even have over 3 in a class. So while you may see your dog placing as some sort of accomplishment, I DON'T. :lol: It doesn't matter who was judging, dog man or not, the thing still would have placed. :no2:....again by DEFAULT. You know kinda like a 3 horse race and you brag about taking 3rd! LOL

    I don't know where you steer off to great danes LOL I don't know squat about you breeding great danes, but you bred blue dogs before you bred your precious merles. So before you go running your trap saying I breed for color maybe you should just admit you're nothing but a fad breeder. Oh and the funny part is you grasp at it so hard to label me as that because of a slogan somebody else used LOL Not even my slogan, nor have I ever used it, or touted it. hahahaha

    Sorry ABK you can try to make yourself out as the poor poor victim if you want, but the real victims are the poor animals you're breeding.
     
  17. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I am not bashing or sneering at your dogs. I have not said anything negative about your dogs. You are always on the defensive. I did say what others have said about Merle dogs.

    I am able to share my opinion. Just as you. When you post on the open forum be prepared to get all types of responses wether good or bad. Just the chance your take. I have the right to question what I want to.

    You see while this may be a pet site. But do not take "pet owners" as idiots. Again you are breeding a dog that can pass on genetic issues. Who knows what that person you sell it to is going to do. While you may not be breeding Merle on Merle.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2011
  18. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    Boogie, you don't even know the whole truth. Your replies show you only have a elementary grasp of what you're talking about, let alone a grasp of the whole truth.

    1: I did not take this thread OT. Other people did when they started asking questions (see post #43).

    2: I believe there were more than 30 dogs at the show. I will see if I can get an accurate count to make sure.

    3: No dog placed by default. Once again, it was "judge's discretion."

    4: Not every dog placed by default. There were some who did not place. In once class the whole ring was full.

    5: I did not have any merles there, I had a merle there. One. Not more than one.

    6: I never bred blue dogs, although I do like the color on certain dogs. I did have a litter by a black male & out of a red/blacknosed bitch. Half the litter was brindle, half was blue. I kept one of the blue females. She was bred once & I didn't even keep any of her blue offspring. So yeah, I'm a blue breeder alright! lol.

    If you want to get it right, I bred blue bloodlines, specifically the Watchdog bloodline. But I did not breed blue dogs. Savannah, my red double bred granddaughter of WD's Blu Glory was bred 3 times. One time to a black dog (5 blues, ONE of which we kept & ALL of which were unexpected). One time to a blue merle dog (no blues) & one time to a fawn dog (no blues). So yes, I'm was terrible, evil blue breeder.

    sheesh

    Still blessing you in spite of.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2011
  19. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Not from what I heard when you were in Ohio. And that came from a Dogman. About the blues.

    Now from when I look back at this thread. Someone asked what a BFKC was I explained it. And then you come back with well "If the dog men picked him or had a problem response" looks like you were on the defensive. I was talking kennel clubs.

    I am sorry you did not get all the ohhs and ahhhs from everyone. But some of us can not stand to see irresponsible breeding. And I have known of you from these forums for going on 6 years.

    So besides getting placed at a show what else has your dog done to deserved to be bred?
     
  20. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    EDIT: When you say what "others" say about merle dogs you are embracing & endorsing that opinion unless you state otherwise.

    But let's say you are voicing your opinion. You're doing it in a pretty rude manner. I agree when you post on an open forum you'll get all types of responses. But that's why there are rules there, to keep the riff-raff in check. What happened to Mindfloodz? He was just posting his opinion on rude people & got banned. But yet Boogie runs wild. Why is that?

    And nowhere did I say pet owners were "idiots." Why would you even infer that? In fact, I think they are MORE intelligent here b/c most of them don't just parrot what they "heard" about merle without even knowing anything about them like some people do. People here will ask questions & are willing to learn. On other sites it can be much more closed minded.

    As for me breeding dogs that can pass on genetic issues, that's a pretty big assumption on your part isn't it? How do you know? Are you privy to his vet records? Privy to the genetics of his ancestors? And what's to say you are not? I highly doubt you have done any health testing on your dogs. Maybe you have. IDK. But I'm willing to bet you have not. So how could someone who (likely) has not done any health testing on their own dogs even begin to say someone else's dogs - who they don't even know from Adam's house cat - are passing on genetic defects?? Wow. For you to even put forth something like that is beyond rude.

    As for who I sell to, all my merles have been on S/N contracts. So you don't have to worry about any merle x merle coming out of here. But if/when I do sell or place an intact merle the person will be given an informational sheet.

    Sheesh, what do you people take me for? There are people out there as you read this mega breeding defective lines, breeding for color, etc. & you decide to focus on me? Maybe I should just say "dash it all!" & do like those people do. They do everything unethical, but catch little to no flak & in some cases are revered. Maybe doing things wrong is the right way to do things! :dunno:

    YIC
     
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