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Discussion in 'Bull Terrier' started by mfern004, May 6, 2011.

  1. Red Devil

    Red Devil Puppy

    Here's 2 other pics of him.



    He looks a cracking dog i'd feed him.;)
  2. mfern004

    mfern004 Puppy

    Nice! Do you know of the dog? Or where'd you find the pics?

    Well that depends on what you mean by a "proper head" I'd say. Having almost no stop is a characteristic that gave the EBT an unmistakeable look and its a rather charming one i think. But what's the point of continuing to over-exaggerate that trait till the dogs start to look silly? Referring to a dog as a "parrot head" seems more like an insult! Obviously my opinion is biased because I like dogs bred for performance, but I see the continuous move towards breeding a more and more exaggerated sloping muzzle as no different than the APBT being selectively bred into what we now call the American Bully.
  3. Red Devil

    Red Devil Puppy

    I cant remember mate had em a while i think i came across them when i was looking for the Friar Tuck blood.
  4. Poisoned

    Poisoned GRCH Dog

    Bull Terrier definitely looked more like normal dogs in the past.
    Rapid and sustained evolution of breeds. Purebred bull terrier skulls from 1931 (Top), 1950 (Middle), and 1976 (Bottom). Despite the lack of genetic diversity caused by population structure and history, these breeds are able to continually create new and more extreme morphological variations at a rapid and sustained pace. Analysis of the Runx-2 repeats in the 1931 bull terrier reveals a more intermediate allele (Q19A14) than is present in the modern bull terrier (Q19A13).

    Just a few cool old pics...

    As for the dog listed, no way can you say he's a mutt or purebred without knowing him..
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2011
  5. mstngchic2012

    mstngchic2012 Good Dog

    I'd rather have a BT with a little bit of a stop rather than none at all. I just don't like the extreme heads what so ever - very unattractive IMO. And it just seems like the extreme head shapes would be an impairment over time...
  6. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    I Agree that the heads they are trying get that are damn near half circle are ridiculous, and ugly IMO. the dogs just a few posts up look gorgeous and regal, fine examples of bull terriers.
  7. mottatron

    mottatron Little Dog

    I've seen these pics before. Isn't the dog from somewhere like Poland or Germany or somewhere in Eastern Europe.
    I'm with the doubters here. Handsome though he is, I would bet my left one that he is a mix.
    Just look at the ear placement for one. Totally not where a BT has his ears set.
    He's a PitXBT or StaffieXBT - I'm sure of it.
    For reference purposes only, I include this link to a UK BT rescue site with several of such crosses. Is this OK mods? If not, please remove link but leave the rest of my post!

    Bull Terrier Crosses

    See what I mean?
  8. Red Devil

    Red Devil Puppy

    Here's a few more show a slight stop.


    This dog has the same head as the dog at the start of this thread.





    This is one of my fav Bull terriers would like to see side shot of him.
  9. mstngchic2012

    mstngchic2012 Good Dog

    Just because crosses may have produced similar looking dogs to the one in the OP doesn't mean that it is a cross. Throw backs and anomalies can and do happen.
  10. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    This is a profile of Ormandy's Mr. Mcguffin.

    He's a stud, definately one of my all time favorite pictures of Bt's he's perfect imo. what is funny is how nice these heads are not the crazy bananas they have going now, this is what i think when i see a bt.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2011

    BULLTLOTT Little Dog

    A "proper head" is having no stop at all. In profile it should curve gently downwards from the top of the skull to the tip of the nose.
    Yes I have seen some that are WAYY to curved and humpish. I like a good round "in between head". Makes the dog unmistakable.
    Also, silly might not be too friendly of a word as some of us own BT's with pretty exaggerated heads. But I respect your biases as I have my own.
    A curved head has nothing to do with performance, there are plenty of BT's with straighter heads that are mellow in temperament and have low drive.
    And the American Bully is completely different from the APBT in body structure, size, shape and from what I've heard...Temperament. I'm not judging all books by their covers just from what I've heard and seen from various owners. While a BT can have different head shape- they can have the same drive and body type. Yes, straighter heads might have a higher likelihood of being drivey in comparison to show style, but I know they're out there.

    Wow! I love the other pictures btw!
  12. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    Awesome avatar photo Bulltlott! Sorry, back to the topic...

    BULLTLOTT Little Dog

    Why thank you! She was about 15 months in the picture. :)
  14. Mrpedigree

    Mrpedigree Big Dog

    Great post ...and bang on the money :)
  15. mfern004

    mfern004 Puppy

    Thanks BULLTLOT, you're right, I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I know what Hucklebutt meant by "a proper head" but my intention was to undermine the correctness of the standard with that question. Simply put, what is the importance of that shape to the point that it makes a dog without that dramatic head shape (like the dog pictured in my original post) less desirable? As you can see in Poisoned's post, the shape of the BT's head wasn't always like it is today. You are correct in that the shape of the Bull Terriers skull does not have any DIRECT relation to the dog's temperament. But the head that has been created for this breed in the past few decades is unlike that of any other canine breed, and it required some very heavy selective breeding specifically for this trait to be achieved. This type of breeding leads to animals that LOOK the way the breeders wanted, but don't have the guts of the original! That is exactly what happened when people took the APBT and wanted to make it short, thick, wide, and blue... And the AmBully was born! That is why I used the example. The Bull Terrier was a sporting dog once upon a time, but now there are very few examples that have the build, athleticism, and drive of a worker. I posted the picture of that dog because I can tell by looking at him he wouldn't stand a chance in the show ring even though he appears to have a more athletic body type. Bull Terriers aren't very common, and working type examples are almost unheard of, which is why I wanted to share the picture when I found it.

    BULLTLOTT Little Dog

    No offense taken! Sadly, I don't know why the standard asks for a head with no stop nor why they changed the desired standard for something with no purpose. All I know is way back they were trying to breed a BT without a stop back in the early 1900's? Correct me if I'm wrong. I guess they wanted a dog that looked different from other bull and terrier crosses and started breeding more for a gentlemen's companion. The white colour and a stopless head became more popular. Over the years like many breeds a trait gets exaggerated. Sometimes I don't know why. Maybe because they have something to breed for and focus on? To have something to judge more harshly on? (Head shape, roach back, etc.) I really don't know. I've never shown.
    The reason why they wouldn't have the guts that originals do is because most familys nowadays don't want a high drive pet. They don't need to do their orignal jobs anymore such as bull baiting, dog fighting, ratting because from what I know it's now illegal. (Even though people still do it) I feel this is just supply and demand.
    I don't think there are fewer athletic body types in the BT world! Well not on this forum anyway. :)

    Also, I don't really know much about AmBully's. Are they really selectively bred from APBT to APBT? They seemed to pop up out of nowhere in the last decade. It seemed to happen so fast I thought the ABPT was actually bred with an English Bulldog or a Stafforshire. Heck, some look like blue E.Bulldog's to me!
    No offense they just aren't my cup o tea.
  17. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    This makes me so sad... I know most people don't want that but honestly families should get a dog that fits them not a dog that looks neat... for me, I want as much drive, and gameness as i can get, yes Bullbaiting, and ratting is illegal but there are other games/tasks that will simulate it and most people are so lazy that they wouldn't get into it for their pup... :no2:

    As for my boy... he's got a crazy prey drive... and not much of a crazy no stop head, i never realized that head shape could help determine temperament or drive though if i'm understanding you guys correctly.
  18. mfern004

    mfern004 Puppy

    Head shape isn't related to temperament or drive. You could in a hypothetical situation have a very exaggerated BT head on a high drive dog. But when breeders try to take a certain LOOK to the extreme, other qualities of the dogs suffer. The first thing that suffers is performance. They don't select the best workers and breed those, instead they select the dogs with the most extreme head shape or whatever the fad in the show ring is. Very quickly you can achieve the look the breeders wanted but lose the original character of a dog that was bred for purpose...

    And you were spot on about a dog to fit the owner! There are plenty of breeds out there that were created to be nothing more than companion lapdogs, why take a sporting dog like the EBT and try to water it down for that?
  19. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    Thanks for clearing that up, it makes sense that they could lose some of those qualities. I guess when i start looking for another one i'll make sure to find a kennel that specialized in high drive working EBT's not show looks ;)
  20. btlover

    btlover Little Dog

    Ok this is how I see it... The lack of a stop is what makes a BT unique. It has nothing to do with the differing temperaments, but they need to have NO stop. IMO, to take this away is the same as trying to breed out DA in APBTs. I really don't care what the various views are about athleticism vs substance (and all arguments that go with) but the standard is very clear on profile...gently curving.. NO where does it say that "the more the better." The standard says egg shaped, when viewed head on - as in no indentations - not in profile. However, some people think it means the more curved in profile, the better.
    Sadly, some judges are rewarding these "parrots" so more people are breeding for them.
    Really, when bts are completely food motivated, but they can't possibly see it because of their nose....Time to rethink!

    ---------- Post added at 10:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

    Also, I see we have a new member here with a very similar name. Welcome :) but please don't confuse us :)

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