1. Welcome to Pit Bull Chat!

    We are a diverse group of Pit Bull enthusiasts devoted to the preservation of the American Pit Bull Terrier.

    Our educational and informational discussion forum about the American Pit Bull Terrier and all other bull breeds is a venue for members to discuss topics, share ideas and come together with the common goal to preserve and promote our canine breed of choice.

    Here you will find discussions on topics concerning health, training, events, rescue, breed specific legislation and history. We are the premier forum for America’s dog, The American Pit Bull Terrier.

    We welcome you and invite you to join our family.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

    Dismiss Notice

Legal game testing, IS IT POSSIBLE???

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by PITPAL, Dec 4, 2018.

Tags:
  1. Worg

    Worg Big Dog

    There are crappy breeders in both directions, with this breed specifically I am seeing more damage being done with people far too invested in the past and unwilling to see the issues with old methods. It's not black and white, you certainly can breed for drive and health, you dont have to chose one or the other. I'm not talking about show breeders here, because most of them also do not test their dogs, I'm talking about modern WL breeders producing better dogs using the knowledge and options we have to better selectively breed.
     
  2. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    When I mentioned working dog that was what we used to call our dogs instead of sporting dogs.
    You can breed a dog that's have very few flaws with correct conformation but if it can't do the job the breed calls for they are worthless.
    I haven't heard about an amstaff making a good sporting dog in many years. They look good but what makes them look good usually keeps them from being a good sporting dog.
    There were a few amstaff and pit bull crosses back in the early 1980's that turned out to be fairly good sporting dogs.
    Just about all of the amstaffs I see today are too short coupled, too wide, shallow chest, and carry too much weight to make a sporting dog. They do look good though.
     
  3. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    Conformation is easy to breed for. It is easy to see what you have. Color seems to be one thing many people breed for which is very easy to do but does not make a bit of difference in a pit bull.
    You cannot see gameness. It is much harder to breed for.
    I can understand why some people would want take the easy way of breeding dogs.
    It takes many years to find and breed game dogs.
    Anyone can put two conformation dogs together and get conformation dogs.
    You can buy them everywhere or even get them free.
     
  4. Worg

    Worg Big Dog

    I have a feeling you havent been involved in the AmStaff world for many years then.
    No, what makes them pretty is not what makes them less drivey, show breeders are what make them less drivey and good structure only BENEFITS a working or sporting dog.

    My issue is not with breeding dogs for gameness, my issue is with the vast majority of these breeders producing dogs for nothing BUT gameness and creating a useless dog that does nothing but drag chain.
     
  5. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    Who has these amstaff sporting dogs? How long have they gone for?
    What weight? Who have they won over?
     
  6. Worg

    Worg Big Dog

    Off the top of my head Esoteric is producing some top notch sporting AmStaffs
     
  7. brindle

    brindle Little Dog

    To the original question, no, there is no legal game test for the dogs in America. Other countries have different laws, different attitudes, but here in the US, it's been illegal for a long time and I doubt anything will change in the future.

    It is a topic that has been discussed many times, and there are some excellent and accurate responses here. Whatever one's views, I'd say we can all appreciate a good pit bull no matter if it is from a shelter, or how it is bred or whether it is "game" or not.

    Is there really a place for the true game dog in today's world… in the US…? One can admire the gameness of the old time dogs that proved themselves, but how many homes/owners can cope with a real deal game dog? Something to think about as some of these dogs do not make easy pets in today's world. Laws have changed and a dog can be condemned to death just for killing a cat or for getting in a fight with another dog.
     
  8. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    Yes, I am afraid the time of the real pit bull has passed. They just don't have a place in the world today.
    Maybe in other countries they will continue to breed them. I hate to see them go and really have become disappointed with what they have become.
    I will always remember the dogs I have had in the past. I felt a lot of pride with what I had.
    Many times I wish I could have one of my favorites back with me even knowing they would be out of place in todays world.
     
    Sagebrush likes this.
  9. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    Worg,
    When I was breeding GSP’s we were constantly trying to make them better by improving upon their natural inherent properties, as well as their bred in properties, ie. health, speed, water drive, pointing stance, retrieving, etc...
    You make a pure blood dog better by improving upon their strengths. Not by breeding out there strengths, or by trying add new ones.
    Seems you believe that the APBT is somehow improved upon by one breeding to remove gamenes. I think this is counter intuitive and the results would be a new or designer breed. As for improvement must include the phenotypes to be game at a percentage higher than or a minimum of equal to that of it’s ancestors.

    It’s my opinion:
    1) game dogs cannot be judged based on weather or not they are dog aggressive.
    2) human aggression should always be dealt with by culling the dog.
    3) Game dogs are not more or less likely to be good pets.
    4) Game dogs in my experience make better protectors of farm stock so long as they are not animal aggressive to the farm animals. This I believe has as much to do with initial exposure as it does inherent traits.
    5) game dogs raised on a chain will most likely never be able to be turned loose into a pack of existing dogs or farm animals.
    This may not be true for a dog that is not game and raised on a chain.
     
  10. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    I sure appreciate all the feedback, but I hope brindle and oldman are wrong. I’m going to make it my goal to breed some Great APBT’s. The kind you guys are talking about of years past. I finally got a reply from one of the guys I’ve been trying to reach for six months last night. We are going to get together in a couple weeks to see about doing some breeding or maybe me buying some of his dogs as I believe he’s looking to get out of it. Another old timer and great dogman exiting the APBT world taking with him decades of knowledge.

    I’m not about sit by and miss my opportunity to gain as much of his knowledge as I possibly can. He made the comment that there’s not the money in it like there use to be. He also made the comment that when they use to have the shows it was a brotherhood. Even the guys that didn’t get along still helped one another at times. Not to say there weren’t a few no good SOB’s. Now he said they are all no good SOB’s.

    Maybe with any luck some of his blood will work well with some of the guys in TN or NC. I may have to go further but I sure hope not. If anyone knows of any good breeders in southern IL, southern IN, or KY, please let me know.

    With any luck maybe I can renew some interest or kindle a fire in some of the guys who have faded out or lost interest with the breed. I know I’ve got a lot to learn so anyone who has any firsthand experience and would like to share please do.
    Cory
     
  11. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    Esoteric has some very high quality amstaffs. About 40 years ago I had a few amstaffs out of the Ruffian, Tacoma, Expert line. At that time they were not considered game. If I was going to get an amstaff that bloodline would be one of my first picks. They were more likely to show some form of gameness than any other amstaff blood. They were strong, athletic, with a good mouth but they didn't have the same gameness as pit bulls.
    I crossed my amstaffs with some Colby bloodline. They did great in the UKC conformation shows. One of my males was among the first red nosed dogs to make their championship in UKC.
    For a rather short time I was a conformation judge in UKC. I stopped about the time many UKC judges started putting up the heavier, wider amstaff type dogs.
     
    Sagebrush likes this.
  12. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Good for you. If I may say (and my stand on these "bully" things is well-known) , that was the beginning of the bully craze. Breeders and owners of those overdone dogs spewed to whoever would listen that they had correct APBTs because of those judges that conferred championships on them. When judges started doing that, UKC felt they actually had to go in and make additions to the standard, making "overdone" faulty. Good grief. Any good judge KNOWS that just from history! To actually have to put it in the standard is down right embarrassing.

    I bred and owned UKC Ch. Sagebrush Tacoma Danni, who Esoteric and I have been using via frozen semen in those breedings.
     
  13. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    I had a male with a pedigree the same as Sagebrush Tacoma Danni. He was born in the early 1980's.
    If I remember right Ch. Atchley's Fanny was his grandmother.
     
  14. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    You guys know your stuff. I have a collegue that raises a few liters of well bred AmStafs every year. I believe he has even sold several to some breeder that is crossing them into Doberman Pinschers creating some designer Mut. I’d never tell him and I certainly hope putting this here never gets back to him, but I think if I was going to get an AmStaf from him I’d probably just rather buy a boxer from a friend of mine. His dogs certainly don’t have the personality of the APBT’s that I currently or have had in the past. I think the Mastiff influence on the AmStaff of today have made a big difference. I
     
  15. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    Mister,
    Sorry for not getting in on this earlier but as you may have read I was in an accident and nearly lost my leg. Could have easily been killed but the good Lord was watching over me.

    You say there is a standardized method for testing gameness and it’s ilegal. I didn’t know there was an accepted standardized method, legal or not. Would you mind educating us on this test method and what makes it legal?
    Your response would be much appreciated by those of us without your knowledge.
    Thank you,
    C.
     
  16. AGK

    AGK Scratch Kingz Staff Member Super Moderator

    The short answer is no if you live in the continental US or any of it's territories.
    It's yes if you live in many other places that have more concerning issues to worry about other than dogfighting. Areas where the sport is either legal still or just not really cared about to be enforced like mexico or the balkans. I didnt read all 4 pages of this topic. Actually I only read the main post and the one directly after it. I'm sure there is a ton of misinformed opinions on the subject matter as this site is not geared towards the working end of these dogs. More so the beloved couch denters so take the info with a grain of salt..
    Not meant to hurt anyones feelings but the truth is the truth. Lol.
     
  17. AGK

    AGK Scratch Kingz Staff Member Super Moderator

    Look up the cajun rules. It will explain to you the methods to properly test a dog for gameness. I'd look at it as a historical rule book and leave it at that unless you dont mind a trip to the pokie. Lol
     
  18. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy


    Thank you for your input. I didn’t realize the Cajun rule book had game test procedures. I will look that up and research it, as I am one of the few that believes unless a legal method is legitimized the breed will continue to deteriorate here in the US. And I really don’t want to have to go to SA, Mexico, or somewhere overseas to buy a dog from game proven bloodlines.
     
  19. AGK

    AGK Scratch Kingz Staff Member Super Moderator

    Not just your opinion. This is a fact---^
    When I started to read this thread I noticed a lot other animals coming up from boars to wolves and even guard breeds. None of those will test a dogs gameness what it will test is it's drive which a lot of folks confuse the 2 traits as being the same. They are not. ( I know you know that, its for the others ;) )
     
    oldman and brindle like this.
  20. AGK

    AGK Scratch Kingz Staff Member Super Moderator

    It don't tell you how to game test as a procedure. It IS the standard way to test/match. Many people think that the breed will suffer here. Here is a pretty well know fact, It's been Illegal our entire lives, anyone who has posted lifetime. Yet they are everywhere, not hard to find at all and im sure many of yous read the news bots here where someone is getting arrested daily for dogfighting. True hardcore fanciers of the breed will never let them die off. The reality is it is still going on all over this country regularly. Crime and the USA go together like strippers and cocaine or pb and j.
     

Share This Page