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Legal game testing, IS IT POSSIBLE???

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by PITPAL, Dec 4, 2018.

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  1. GK1

    GK1 Little Dog

    You only see true gameness when it is against something not fighting out of fear for its life.

    ...human opponents do not always fight out of fear for their life.
     
  2. Mister

    Mister Little Dog

    Reads to me like you still don’t know the difference between gameness and aggression.
    It’s not the people with game dogs that are the problem, but rather irresponsible pet owners, owners like yourself that have no experience, respect or understanding of what the bulldog is.
    Anyone who says the breed shouldn’t be bred for its number one characteristic, is as far as I’m concerned a breed ban enthusiast of the worst kind.
     
  3. Mister

    Mister Little Dog

    Where humans are concerned there’s always fear, fear of being caught, arrested etc. Besides how times did the dogs have to scratch? They’re never broken off and scratched back multiple times in a weakened condition. I admire those dogs and what they do but game dogs they aren’t
     
  4. Mister

    Mister Little Dog

    Hunting with bulldogs is inherently far more cruel to the prey species which only fights out of fear. People seem concerned about the ethics of the breeds function but none are concerned about any cruelty inflicted on the hog. People are more concerned about the legality of an activity and not if what they suggest as an alternative is morally superior. Just because something illegal doesn’t mean there’s not something that’s legal but ethically crueller.
     
  5. TWadeJ

    TWadeJ Big Dog

    Mister,
    It is clear from your post that that you haven't read the entire thread or all of my posts in it. Please do so before making ignorant, incorrect comments.
    Please do me the honor of answering the question initially posted. Is LEGAL game testing possible in America?
     
  6. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    I’m going have to disagree with you that certain dogs have fighting styles that benefit them under different rules. I believe hard mouthed dogs benefit under the UKC variants as they tend to shorten matches that could go on for a long while. Blackwell’s rules and browns rules I feel we’re created with medium to larger dogs in mind, while the Hemphill rules favored that of the smaller dogs more common in that era.

    Also, I said I had never been to a match. I didn’t say I’d never seen a match. And I know exactly what gamenes is and have seen game dogs and I’ve seen Curs. I believe a standardized method could be developed both legally and ethically. I also believe that a dog can express game fighting a hog just as he can a dog. Remember, at first these dogs were used to fight bulls and bears. Not each other.

    I’d like to hear about any matches you’ve seen or heard of that influenced your opinions about why game testing is important.
    Thanks for the dialogue.
     
  7. Mister

    Mister Little Dog

    The original question was Legal game testing is it possible? Simple answer to that is yes. To answer your question, In America, not possible as has been pointed out to the op.
    Only one making incorrect comments is yourself who still doesn’t seem to differentiate between gameness and aggression. One thing your unlikely to see is a gamedog out of control. Time and time again it’s the unknowledgeable pet owners who cause the problems and newspaper headlines.
     
  8. GK1

    GK1 Little Dog

    That a wild animal fighting for territory or survival can’t be a willing, formidable opponent that tests a hunting dog’s mettle under pressure (gameness if you will) …or human fighting to escape, or for an extremist ideology, or from an altered state of mind can’t be a willing, “scratching” and formidable opponent for an apprehension K9, is simply not true.
     
  9. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    But for the traditional type of gameness that we are talking about here, we are talking about the very refined version - that which was developed to determine gameness against an equal opponent where the opportunity is always there to quit. And you don't test that against bulls and bears, however admirable an ability to not quit in those situations might be.
     
  10. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Sure, that hunting dog is game.
     
  11. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    And no, legal game testing of the APBT is not possible in this country. Many have been tested on hogs and you can probably find someone who does that and go watch.
     
  12. Mister

    Mister Little Dog

    No bulldogs cannot be legally tested in the US. There is a standardised method to test again it is illegal. People have tried to roll muzzled dogs so they couldn’t get hurt but even that was deemed illegal. The way some laws are written just owning a bulldog, a dog lead and pair of walking boots could be classed and argued as dogfight paraphernalia. Morals had nothing to do with anti Pit bull or dogfighting laws or hunting and other things would’ve been banned as well.

    Dogs were matched lb for lb so whichever rules were used it wouldn’t have favoured either dog, large or small. Don’t think I’ve seen Hemphill rules strange for him to come up with rules that would put his dogs at a disadvantage considering his were on the large size. Brown and Cajun are both known to be modified versions of the Blackwell rules. The reason they switched to Cajun rules from UKC is Cajun shorten the contest. Hard mouth isn’t a style.

    Dogfighting is an old sport and was in existence even when bull/bear baiting was being practiced. So no I don’t think the breed stems from these baiting dogs.

    What influences me into thinking the dogs should be tested is a game dog is calm confident and overall generally has a superior temperament than the pet bred crap that cause the majority of the bad press the breed receives.
     
  13. GK1

    GK1 Little Dog

    Game bred dog is no more likely or less likely than other working breeds to be calm, confident, man biter or not. Modern game pedigrees are tainted with unhealthy, fearful, mentally unstable, abused and incompetently inbred animals. Probably a fair percentage of those pedigrees are inaccurate anyhow. Since dogfighting became a felony in the US, what segment of society in the US do you think continues real pit game testing, game breeding? The premise of the OP is a myth. Sure there are a few skilled and knowledgeable breeders who know what they are doing and preserving the breed, its gameness and fighting prowess. But they are on borrowed time - unless they find a legal, socially acceptable outlet for their dogs.
     
    Worg likes this.
  14. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    In the U.S. it isn't legal to game test a pit bull. There is only one way to game test a dog and it is against the law.
    There are still a few that still game test but they are getting fewer every day.
    A pit bull can not be game tested with a wild animal or even a domestic animal. The only way to game test a pit bull is with another, or several other, pit bulls. Very few wild animals would be a test for a pit bull as they are not game and will run when possible. Most wild animals will not last long enough with a pit bull to even come close to game testing them.
     
  15. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    So, you don’t think taking a 150 lb wild hog that has been detusked but otherwise healthy and unharmed in a 20X20 ft pen. The. Turn your 40 lb APBT into the pin and allow it to bite and hold on for 15 minutes while being beaten and battered by an animal 4 times its size doesn’t prove a dog is game???
    I will admit that I have seen this method. Most of the time within 5 minutes the dog has had enough and jumps out of the pen wanting no more. Those dogs can be great pets! They can be used in various competitions, etc...
    But they CAN NOT be used as a catch dog where clients may choose to spear or stab a hog and the only thing keeping it from tusking him is a top notch dead game APBT that would rather die than let go.
     
  16. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    The hog is still a wild animal. It is in a small pen and does not have any choice. There is no scratching. It is only 15 minutes. Any dog that would quit in 5 minutes would not be worth feeding if you were wanting game dogs. Even 15 minutes isn't long enough.
    Many hog hunters will use cur and cross bred dogs as catch dogs.
     
    Sagebrush likes this.
  17. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    I don’t see what a wild animal has anything to do with the effectiveness of the test. And I’m sure that a dog that last 20 minutes with a wild hog that outweighs it more than 100 lbs would stand to do well against another dog. I think you and so many others are confusing game ness with fighting ability. I understand that a dog can’t exhibit its fighting ability against a hog. But it can prove gameness.
     
  18. Mister

    Mister Little Dog

    What your describing as a test is legally termed baiting (I believe its illegal) and I’m sure detusking a wild boar to bait that animal is also illegal. How does one go about detusking a wild boar anyhow?
    It’s the fear thing, dogs sense another animals fear and lack of enjoyment so it gives even a cur the will to carry on. One of the reasons a test only works against its own kind is the breed enjoys fighting. You can’t find that in any other animal or breed of dog and why dogmen consider it cruel to test with anything other than an apbt.
     
  19. Mister

    Mister Little Dog

    I said game dog not gamebred, one is a proven individual other is just a pedigree.
    I’d like you show us some of these pedigrees of abused, unhealthy, fearful, unstable dogs and point em out. I’d also especially like to see the pedigrees of those incompetent inbred dogs you spoke of as you must know those breeders personally and very well to say they’re incompetent breeders.
    You sound like a walking peta advert cos if you knew bulldogs and had any common sense, you’d know that any decent consistent breeders. You’d know that they don’t get abused or illtreated and are looked after way better than any pet or working breed. As for pedigrees being wrong some probably are some ain’t, just like in any other breed, all pedigrees of any beeed is open to speculation. Unless one is there in person at every mating and every delivery of any dog in a pedigree then you just have to go by what the breeder says. That’s why knowing dogs and the line helps. The segment of US society that keeps the breed honest is the same as it’s always been the working class.
    There are ppl that do abuse and ill treat these dogs but they ain’t dogmen. More often than not they’re called byb’s at best.
     
  20. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    There are many hunting hounds with great fighting ability that would do the same thing on that hog.

    That Pit Bull might be very courageous, but it would not be considered the specific kind of game that the Pit Bull is known for.
    You have to game-test that APBT against an opponent of equal weight where both dogs desperately want to be there.
    Time and scratching are key.
     
    brindle likes this.

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