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Legal game testing, IS IT POSSIBLE???

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by PITPAL, Dec 4, 2018.


    PITPAL Puppy

    im sorry if this question offends anyone but I believe it’s something that is often danced around in the APBT breeding discussions. I’d like to know three things for those willing to stick your neck out and weigh in.

    1) is there a way of determining gameness legally and ethically? Please don’t include anything that is blatantly cruel or torturous. I’m sure there are many good ideas, probably none that aren’t extremely controversial. So please be specific.

    2) assuming there is (are) ways to legally and ethically game test these dogs could the method be standardized? What type of methods would have to be used? Video, the presence of a qualified Veterinarian, dog trainers, safety equipment, etc???

    3) is this necessary to continue to produce bulldogs that have been the cornerstone of the breed? Seems any discussion of these dogs breeding must include some of the history of the days dogs proved themselves in the pits, or in the bull/bear baiting arena. Before that I’m sure butchers in England probably culled many dogs that did not show complete bravery in trying to bring down a 1000 lb bull hell bent on killing everything in its path. Same could be said for a dog that wasn’t willing to charge head on into the head region of a pissed off wild boar cornered and with nothing left to loose.
  2. Worg

    Worg Big Dog

    I would say yes, but then I will get flak from people who are way too concerned about big names in pedigrees. These days the way people say game dog can almost always be replaced by game bred.

    Testing is essential, but test for a utility purpose rather than pointless illegal entertainment. You're welcome to PM me if you like, I am not a breeder just a person with a lot of opinions :))

    PITPAL Puppy

    how do I PM???
  4. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    One of our rules:
    1. We understand, that on occasion, there will be discussions about dog fighting. While we do not support or condone the illegal act of dog fighting, we understand the necessity of such discussions for the purpose of education only. Approved conversations would include discussions pertaining to current events in the news media or historical accuracies on the subject. However, dog fighting is not to be discussed in any other manner including, but not limited to: insinuating or accusing members of dog fighting for pictures they post or posts they make, pedigrees or dogs they may or may not own, etc. If you find you have an issue with something posted to the site, or is in direct violation of our rules, please report it to the administration so that it may be properly handled. Please do not make a post to it.
    Worg likes this.

    PITPAL Puppy

    I hope I didn’t violate rule 1. As I clearly stated an ethical and legal way to game test, not fight.
  6. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    All is good. I just don't want the thread to take a different 'turn'.
    EstyEsty likes this.
  7. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Administrator

    Michele made a funny, lol
    EstyEsty and Michele like this.

    PITPAL Puppy

    Ok, I’ll try to get the ball rolling. If more folks weigh in I’ll know there is some interest. If not I’ll let it go and drop the topic for another place.
    1) Game Testing
    Just one year ago I would have unequivocally said the days of game testing APBT’s was something of the past. And while it’s a shame gameness (while certainly an admirable quality and any individual ending up with a dog willing to prove its fortitude against a boar, wolf, or wild dog that outweighs and could easily cause it death) can’t be selected for hopefully it’s something that never leaves the breed.
    Then I happened upon an article about legal dog fighting in Russia. Russia has animal cruelty laws that aren’t that different from ours. So how can dogs be fought legally??? I’ll summarize but basically the Russian Gaurdian dog breeds that receive top honors are required to prove their bravery and ferocity. It’s performed under a controlled setting. Dogs are given the opportunity to prove themselves which generally takes only a few minutes. Injuries are generally minor but all are carefully examined by an on-site veterinarian. The process only allows for an animal to prove it can do the job it was bred for. Once it has the chaos is stopped and the welfare of the animals addressed.
    I know that proving bravery and fighting ability against a wolf or bear or other animal threat is quite different than the game dogs we all love and have proven themselves in pits. But if the Russians can humanely test their guardian dogs I know we Americans can figure out something. Those dogs that aren’t game probably have more value today than ever, as there are too many amazing things these dogs can do that ordinary folks hold in high regard.
    But wouldn’t it somehow be nice to know that if it came down to it your bulldog would give everything, including its life fighting another dog, wolf, bear, bull, wild boar, etc...
    I sure would like to know my dog came from that kind of blood. So, like the Russians, let’s put our heads together and safely and humanely figure out a way to give these animals the opportunity to prove to us what it is that’s made them great
  9. TWadeJ

    TWadeJ Big Dog

    How and why did you change your opinion based on activity conducted in Russia which is a crime in all 50 states? IMO, no, there are no legal or, again IMO, ethical ways.
    Michele likes this.
  10. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    The method used by the Russian registries that I read about would most likely NOT constitute an illegal act in most if not all 50 States.
    The reason I changed my mind was because They were able to ethically, safely, and legally test their animals to see which ones were the best. This is very much the same as my experience with German Shorthair Pointers. The animals that proved to be the best through either the American or German field testing trials have been and will always be the most sought after for breeding and consequently improving the breed as a whole.
    It’s very easy to invision two dogs being turned loose on one another to fight until the point of exhaustion or death and say to oneself that there is no ethical way. The challenge is to think of a way that test gamenes without that happening.
    One breeder in the south that uses his dogs for hog hunting believes that using a detusked 150lb boar and a dog that is around a year in age is a great testing method. Which by the way he claims takes less than 15 minutes to determine and the injuries to either animal are rarely more than scrapes, bruises, and hurt pride. I’m not sure if that method is completely legal but it sounds ethical, as a dog has every opportunity to quit or let go at any time. Again, gameness is the one quality that made these dogs special and kept the breed alive for hundreds of years now. Surely there are some ideas out there. If not, why?
  11. TWadeJ

    TWadeJ Big Dog

    Please show me the Statute in ANY state in the USA under which what you propose would not be illegal. If you can, color me impressed.
    Madeleinemom and Michele like this.
  12. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    Statutes are written into law to define a crime and the possible punishment/fines/etc that may accompany conviction.
    There aren’t statutes defining what is legal.

    Furthermore I only summarized the methods used in Russia. I’m not proposing anything. The reason for my post was to have others propose ideas or methods in which to legally and ethically game test a dog.

    Is it safe to assume that you feel gamenes is something unimportant to the breed?
  13. TWadeJ

    TWadeJ Big Dog

    There are Statutes in EVERY state which declare what you posited, after you read “an article about dog fighting in Russia”, is illegal. I am a lawyer and have defended several dog bite cases. What state do you live in? Have you even bothered to read the Statute in your state? This just covers the legal aspect. What you posited is also unethical in my opinion. Although I do understand that ethics vary among people. I do not believe you will receive any replies which provide a legal way to test if an American Pit Bull Terrier is “game” (as I understand its meaning) on this forum as it cannot be done.
    AGK and Michele like this.
  14. TWadeJ

    TWadeJ Big Dog

    You are correct in your assumption that I don’t believe “gameness” is something that should continue to be bred for - mainly due to irresponsible owners who don’t properly contain their “game” dogs which provides ammo to breed ban enthusiasts. I understand that my position on this particular issue will likely be in the minority on a pit bull forum and have no problem with people with differing opinions as long as they are responsible owners.
  15. TWadeJ

    TWadeJ Big Dog

    You will likely get more responses on this site’s affiliated site - www.game-dog.com. That is where many of the dog owners who are very knowledgeable about the history of the breed and believe that keeping “gameness” is critical post. There are several on this site who appreciate “game” bred dogs and they all strike me as very responsible breeders and owners.
    Michele likes this.
  16. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    Just my opinion........the ONLY way to game test a dog is ILLEGAL.
    EstyEsty and TWadeJ like this.
  17. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    Well then counselor, please indulge us. What exactly did I write or post that is illegal under any statute you care to cite?
    Are u familiar with the process and methods used by the Russians?
    Are u familiar enough with every states statutes so well as to say any kind of game testing would be illegal? I think not.
    And yes I have read the statutes on animal cruelty, what constitutes illegal dog and cock fighting and the many laws that far outnumber any statutes that could be applied to gametesting, surrounding illegal gambling and various other tax and transfer legislation.
    I’ve followed cases and done my own case studies.

    So, you have made your argument and that’s fine. If you have an apbt then are being given a gift by the good breeders of the past that put gameness as the number one quality that determined wether a dog was good enough to breed. Bottom line, don’t argue it because you can’t. If u think gamenes shouldn’t be tested or bred for then you don’t value the original qualities of the breed. And that’s fine too.

    It’s my opinion though, that without a standardized method that is both legal and ethical, the breed will deteriorate and very quickly morph into something very different than the good APBT’s of today.
  18. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    Go take a look at our sister site.....www.game-dog.com
  19. PITPAL

    PITPAL Puppy

    For whatever reason new members are unable to post or reply to anything. I read where they were not allowing new members privileges to post or reply. I wish they were as I’m sure the debate would be livelier over there
  20. TWadeJ

    TWadeJ Big Dog

    Tell me what state you are in and I will walk you through why your proposal is illegal in your state.
    Again, I have no problem with those who respect the heritage and standard of the breed. I also have no problem with dogs that are “game” as long as they are only owned by law abiding owners who are responsible.

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