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Is he too lean ?

Discussion in 'Health & Nutritional Care' started by Pitbullmom1, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. brindle

    brindle Little Dog

    I'm not familiar with Zignature food, so I looked up their Pork kibble, here's the ingrediants list --

    Pork, Pork Meal, Peas, Pea Flour, Chickpeas, Pork Fat, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Choline Chloride, Salt, Vitamins (Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement), Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate), Preserved With Mixed Tocopherols.

    Not a bad food, it has 2 meats in the first 5, but then it has a lot of peas, 3 ingredients are peas in the first 5. There has been some research done showing that the "grain free" foods are not always the best. But they are the popular ones now... along with high protein levels, most dogs don't need more than 24% protein in a dry food.

    I think there are a few that are not grain free and have rice and oatmeal in them. I'd stay away from foods with a lot of corn, but rice and oatmeal are not so bad. Merrick and Fromm made some lines with grains.

    I tend to rotate kibbles, but I also feed half raw too, half a cup of kibble at night and a raw bone in chicken thigh at noon. Plus the oils and yogurt.
     
    Pitbullmom1 likes this.
  2. brindle

    brindle Little Dog

    Oh, and you could add satin balls to his diet for a bit, those have a lot of fat and grain in them, they are good for a short term boost. The recipe is on here I think or it is easy enough to find on Google.
     
    Pitbullmom1 and Capt. Roxy like this.
  3. AGK

    AGK Scratch Kingz Staff Member Administrator Super Moderator

  4. Capt. Roxy

    Capt. Roxy Good Dog Premium Member

    *edited* I found my answer...

    Hope he feels better
     
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  5. Pitbullmom1

    Pitbullmom1 Big Dog

    Thanks for the help I’m definitely going to check into those foods without the peas cause he’s been on this food his whole life so far pretty much he was on taste of the wild for a while too. I’ve heard good things about Fromm too
     
  6. brindle

    brindle Little Dog

    There has been recent info about how the grain free dogs foods with a high amount of peas, etc. in them are linked to heart disease in some dogs. Here are a couple of those articles --

    https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/n...to-know-about-the-fdas-grain-free-diet-alert/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/24/health/grain-free-dog-food-heart-disease.html

    I tend to rotate kibbles, I've done this for years. No particular reason, it's just something I do with my dogs. I've fed Taste of the Wild, Diamond Naturals, Fromm, the old Innova that they don't make any more, Timber Wolf until they sold it, Evolve and a number of others. I also add other things to their diet, such as canned mackeral, cooked sweet potato, cooked butternut squash, brown rice (those are usually left overs from my own dinners), and i also feed half raw too.

    It is not that easy to find a decent quality kibble that has the rice and/or oatmeal in it. With the fad of "grain free" your choices are limited when you want a kibble with meat and some grains that is not 30% plus in protein!
     
  7. Pitbullmom1

    Pitbullmom1 Big Dog

    Thanks for the info I really appreciate it! I used to feed him taste of the wild until I switched to zignature because my other male has Ibd and needs a limited ingredient diet. I’m now looking into maybe Fromm duck looks good and it has no peas or lentils and is kinda affordable what’s your thoughts on that? Should I just try to eliminate peas?
     
  8. Pitbullmom1

    Pitbullmom1 Big Dog

    I’m not going to use the Fromm I’ve changed my mind and I’m gonna try Victor hi-pro for him and see how that works for a while, it looks like good food even tho it’s not grain free
     
  9. brindle

    brindle Little Dog

    I know Fromm has always been a quality kibble but I have not fed it in a few years so I have not kept up with their formulas. Victor is a decent quality kibble too.

    I looked up the ingredients in the Victor Hi Pro, here are the first 10 --

    Beef Meal, Grain Sorghum, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat, Pork Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Whole Grain Millet, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Flax Seed, Feeding Oat Meal

    I am not familiar with "Grain Sorghum", it rather sounds like a by product of making molasses? I'd have to look on Google to learn more about it, it is the second ingredient. There are 4 other meat meals high up in the list, meat meals usually have more meat content than raw meat which gets cooked and loses weight in the process (hence with foods that list "fresh chicken" as the first ingredient, it ends up lower in the list after it is cooked).

    The Victor Hi Pro has 30% protein which I personally think is high, and it has 20% fat which is good as dogs need fat in their diet. The web site says it is 83% meat protein which is a good high percentage.

    https://victorpetfood.com/products/hi-pro-plus

    Victor also has a Professional formula which is 26% protein (IMO a better level) and 18% fat, the first 10 ingredients on this one are --

    Beef Meal, Grain Sorghum, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat, Whole Grain Millet, Pork Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Flax Seed, Feeding Oat Meal, Yeast Culture

    It's a similar formula, you can see "Grain Sorghum" is again the second ingredient, and Whole Grain Millet has moved up and is before Pork Meal while the Fish Meal is missing. So a little less "meat" in this one but it is still listed as 78% meat protein which is also a pretty high percentage.

    https://victorpetfood.com/products/professional

    They have a few other formulas, I see in the Mulit Pro that this Grain Sorghum is the first ingredient, then I looked at their Select kibbles. I did not like the Fish one, it has peas, the Lamb one had a bit less meat than I'd like to see (wonder what "Blood Meal" is…? dried blood scraped up off the slaughter house floor…? I'd not seen that one before)

    I thought the Chicken formula Select kibble looked pretty good on paper… It has 24% protein, 12% fat (a little low but you can always add fat), and the first 10 ingredients show a pretty decent amount of meats --

    Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whole Grain Brown Rice, Whole Grain Millet, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat, Grain Sorghum, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Flax Seed, Feeding Oat Meal

    It is listed as having 70% meat protein, and that Grain Sorghum is down the list, not second like the first two kibbles I listed above.

    https://victorpetfood.com/products/chicken-meal-brown-rice-formula

    Personally I like the Chicken and the Professional kibbles best of their line up. I'll have to go look up what that Grain Sorghum is, it may not be a great thing to have in dog food, could be a filler… I'll post this and see what I find about it. I like how the Chicken reads enough that I might try it for my dog when I run out next time.
     
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  10. brindle

    brindle Little Dog

    I looked up the Grain Sorghum, here are a few links about it --

    http://petfoodreviewer.com/sorghum-in-dog-food/

    https://4knines.com/blogs/4knines-blog-home-page/benefits-of-sorghum-and-flaxseed-in-your-dogs-food

    https://iheartdogs.com/sorghum-should-it-be-in-your-dogs-food/

    Sooo… after reading this, Grain Sorghum does not sound too bad. It is not what I had seen before in dog foods, so I learned something today. I'd prefer not to have it as the second ingredient, but I don't see any problem in having it down the list a bit.
     
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  11. Pitbullmom1

    Pitbullmom1 Big Dog

    Thanks for all the help really I appreciate it. I may try the professional one instead of the hi pro, on this dog food I noticed it doesn’t have any vegetables listed, is that important?
     
  12. Worg

    Worg Big Dog

    I don't like any Purina food, but there are a surprisingly large number of people with sporting and show dogs feeding pro plan.

    Fred Meyers sells high end kibble, but smaller stores and Walmart definitely do not.

    Something to consider is that legumes potentially block taurine absorption, theres information out there on it but I haven't done any in depth research since it doesnt make a difference for my dogs specific diet. Grain free kibble tends to replace grain fillers with legume fillers (which aren't necessarily healthier, just more empty calories).
     
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  13. brindle

    brindle Little Dog

    I don't think dogs really need vegetables. There was some info on line about how dogs cannot digest raw vegetables but they can digest cooked ones. I won't fault a food for not having vegetables in it. I know potatoes, peas, and onions are not particularly good for dogs. I do give mine some cooked sweet potato and some cooked butternut squash but this is usually from my own meals when I have those.

    Interesting about the vegetables blocking taurine absorption, I'd not heard that. Like you said, most vegetables and grains are pretty much just fillers. They have to have something else in the kibble besides just meats to hold it together. The Grain Free stuff is a fad and not always the best choice, though I suppose it does no harm if you rotate kibbles or feed other things too.

    The Victor foods looked pretty good. I think he'd do well on the Professional one, if you try it, please do post back and let us know how he is doing on it. That and the coconut oil and salmon oil should all help, plus of course getting rid of the worms!
     
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  14. oldman

    oldman Little Dog

    Sorghum is about the cheapest grain there is. That is the main reason it is used in dog food.
    It is usually used in cheap chicken scratch. Even birds will not eat it unless they have no other choice.
     
  15. Worg

    Worg Big Dog

    I think people forget that ALL kibble is a balanced diet, it will have all the nutrients a dog needs, though some of them high in corn will be high in sugar and some high in potatoes or grain will be high in carbs. So all the nutrients a dog needs doesn't mean none of the things a dog doesn't need. Kibble that lacks real food ingredients for proper nutrition will supplement them to make up for it, which is partially why dogs can do perfectly fine on pedigree. That and the fact that dogs are a very resilient species when it comes to diet.

    My dog is on raw which is why I havent looked into the legume thing, I havent included any legumes and don't plan to. I agree dogs don't need vegetables, I include cooked dark greens but not with my previous dog on raw. I've heard raw greens aren't safe, who knows. Ive personally seen my dogs poop out any and all raw veg whole, there are a couple dogs at work fed a lot of zucchini and carrot and their poop is chunky and vibrant LOL. Some dogs need a low protien diet and in that case vegetables can help, but that is a special case and shouldn't encourage those with healthy dogs to include needless ingredients. If I had to include veggies in my dogs diet I would probably choose sweet potatoes or pumpkin personally.
     
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  16. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Staff Member Administrator

    Satin Balls (With Grain)
    10 pounds of ground beef
    1 box of Total cereal (NO RAISINS!!) or Shredded Wheat
    1 box of oatmeal
    1 jar of wheat germ
    1 1/4 cup olive oil
    1 1/4 cup of unsulphured molasses
    10 raw eggs with the shells
    10 envelopes of unflavored gelatin
    A pinch of salt

    Satin Balls (With Grain) SMALLER RECIPE
    1 pounds of ground beef
    1 cup of Total cereal (NO RAISINS!!) or Shredded Wheat
    1 cup of oatmeal
    1/4 cup of wheat germ
    1/4 cup olive oil
    1/4 cup of unsulphured molasses
    1 raw eggs with the shell
    1 envelope of unflavored gelatin
    A pinch of salt

    Combine all of the ingredients, roll into 1-inch balls and feed them raw! Portions can be frozen for future use, as well.

    Grain-free Satin Balls

    10 pounds of ground beef
    1 large tub of 4% fat cottage cheese
    500g of cream cheese
    1 1/4 cup olive oil
    1 1/2 cup of unsulphured molasses
    10 raw eggs with the shells
    10 envelopes of unflavored gelatin
    A pinch of salt
     
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  17. Pitbullmom1

    Pitbullmom1 Big Dog

    I’m fixing to go pick up some victor food they have it at a local feed store close to me and I will definitely keep u informed. Thanks for all the info guys I appreciate it.
     
  18. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Staff Member Administrator

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  19. Pitbullmom1

    Pitbullmom1 Big Dog

    So far so good I’ve got both dogs transitioned to the victor professionals and I believe they like it. Even my dog with ibd hasn’t vomited or had bad stools since he’s been on it. And Prince the one in the pic is doing much better I believe his weight has came up a bit his ribs are less noticeable and his spine. This Saturday they’ll get wormed again too.
     
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  20. AGK

    AGK Scratch Kingz Staff Member Administrator Super Moderator

    Just finished my 3 days of worming the yard. I do it on a quarterly schedule or after a litter. This thread reminded me lol.
     
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