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I'm seriously confused- is my dog a Pit Bull or an American Bully?

Discussion in 'American Bully' started by Arrowhead, Apr 11, 2008.

  1. BlueRose_Kennel

    BlueRose_Kennel Little Dog

    Actually, the original Razor's Edge dogs were mostly AKC Amstaffs. The UKC APBT blood used in the line comes mostly from the Minot's Ledge bloodline. There are VERY FEW York dogs in the Edge line.
  2. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    and who might you be referring to with this? I am by no means an expert on the line because I will never breed it, but I've looked at it enough to see plenty of York dogs in there.

    Please clarify your statement as it's always nice to learn more.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2008
  3. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    This is a small piece of the interview at riospitbulls.....

    They went to every breeder on the East Coast. Up north to Bobby Morehouse, Beth Jones, a friend of his Lee Fitzgerald, Flying A's, Minot's Ledge, etc. they actually purchased a blue brindle female named "Sadey" from Minot's Ledge. This litter was had an extraordinary pedigree. The top half were mainly Flying A's dogs like "Oreo" and "Reo Speedwagon".

    My only point being many a york dogs were bred with flying a stuff. There's more in there than you think.
  4. Arrowhead

    Arrowhead Good Dog

    Babe's breeder said that the original RE dogs were mostly AmStaffs as well (I know Babe has a lot of AmStaff in her pedigree)...

    I don't know my a$$ from my elbow about all this, but I figured I'd chime in with that, for whatever it's worth (which may be nothing- LOL!).

    All I know is that the dogs with RE in them that are bred to standard (NOT "bully") are gorgeous animals (like Nick and Hachi :)). I really hate all this controversy with the line because of that fact. Why a good line that was producing some nice, winning dogs (and still does) was messed with in the first place, I'll never know (I mean, why mess with a good thing?!). I just hope the RE dogs that are bred to standard don't eventually die out and become a totally bully type line 'cause of all this nonsense with that line being used to create the American Bully. Not to mention that it frustrates the crap outta people who own RE dogs that meet the standard and they have to listen to people telling them their dog is a mutt, a blue whale, is gonna grow up to look like a hippo, etc... :hipsbat:

    It's such a sad situation and I hope that there are breeders out there that will continue to breed RE dogs the way they use to be.
    Whew- it's late!...I'm off to bed. :goodnight:
  5. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    I know EXACTLY how ya feel! I've actually had people think I was lying to them when I told them what Nicodemus was! I doubt too many people will continue the line breeding to standard due to the mess that's been created with it. It's sad, cuz just like you I think there were some pretty nice dogs that came out of it in the past. Would the nicely bred ones be everybody's line of choice? Prbly not, but that's what makes the world go around. Different people doing different things!

    The other line of dogs I own (Boogieman) has plenty of haters of it also. Blah blah blah from game dog people. Well Tanya proved them all wrong in her time, and even though the haters still exist I am damn proud to own them! Just like good ol' Nick! :D:p
  6. BlueRose_Kennel

    BlueRose_Kennel Little Dog

    Boogieman- yes, you are correct in saying that there are York dogs BEHIND the Flying A's stuff which is BEHIND the Minot's Ledge stuff. Based on this (and what I was taught regaurding bloodlines) it would be incorrect to say that RE was developed using York dogs even though there are York dogs in the pedigree. It would be more correct to say that the Flying A's bloodline was started using York dogs and that the ML Bloodline was developed using FA's, etc. Hope that makes sense!

    This being said, I have to agree with Arrowhead in that the RE bloodline STILL produces a lot of nice, correct dogs but these dogs are being replaced by (or worse- BRED to) the more bully type dogs which is really unfortunent. I know that the oppinion of most people is that RE dogs are "mutts" and that other breeds have been mixed into the bloodline. However (NOT to side with the bully people but) I have spoken with Ellen Kenedy who started the ML bloodline and she told me that if you breed back on the Flying A's stuff too much, you will get a lot of "throwbacks" (or dogs that do not meet the standard). If you look at most of the RE peds, it is not wonder that the RE dogs of today look like hippos considering the amount of INBREEDING that was done.

    IMO, when used CORRECTLY, the RE line can still produce correct dogs. Hachi is RE outcrossed with Cheeks. She definently has more substance that the old Cheeks dogs but she is no hippo! The biggest problem I have with the RE bloodline is the fact that there was NO health testing done on ANY of the dogs. I am willing to bet that that fact coupled with the amount of inbreeding that was done will be the downfall of the so called "American Bully".
  7. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    I hear what you're saying. Maybe I look at peds a little different. IMO I think you could say York, Flying A, and Minot's are all basiclly the "same" dogs. I know the names are changed, but the same blood runs through the veins of all of them. I am in no way trying to argue or anything. Actually I am enjoying the conversation. All were reputable breeders of some fine dogs! :)
    Some peoples idea of what a bloodline is, is quite different than others. IMO just because you bred a few generations and got your name in the ped that far back doesn't necessarily make it a new bloodline. If I bred Bronson and Lizzy for several generations I would still not consider it "my" bloodline. The dogs produced will always be Boogieman dogs as far as I'm concerned.
    Just a little more insight to my thinking...........;):)
  8. BlueRose_Kennel

    BlueRose_Kennel Little Dog

    I can appreciate your views as well. I agree that breeding dogs for a few generations and putting your name on them doen not constitute a "bloodline". However, that's how I was taught to read a pedigree. IMO, a bloodline means CONSISTANCY.
  9. Arrowhead

    Arrowhead Good Dog

    Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, I researched the crap outta this subject. When I 1st started out on it, I discovered a lot people are of the thinking that the RE dogs are mutts 'cause of what Dave Wilson said about Bulldogs being added and then stated that, that wasn't the only breed added. Then later he was throwing a fit and stating he was misquoted and American Bullies were created by crossing APBTs and AmStaffs only. The ABKC states the same thing 'cause I questioned them on the subject and they insisted that American Bullies were NOT mutts (but then again, they're not exactly gonna up and admit it's a lie if it is). Who the hell knows what the real truth is, but my mom (who, like I mentioned before, is a former breeder) and I got into an in depth conversation about whether or not American Bullies could, in fact, be of APBTs and AmStaffs bred for a certain type over a time. Her statement was that if you monkey around with breeding a type long enough, you can very well create a very different looking dog. So the theory that inbreeding could create that look is a valid one. Who knows though. It'd be nice to know what the real deal is, but it'd be a cold day in hell before that ever happened.
  10. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    I thought York was an Amstaff line...
  11. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    They are registered in the UKC and ADBA as APBT. Don't know if they are AKC registered as AmStaff's or not. Never been a fan of the AKC so I don't know squat about them.:(
  12. DieselDawg

    DieselDawg Good Dog

    If you breed Amstaffs and APBT together...you will not get anything but APBT and Amstaff traits out of each pup. You will not get a blend of two of the same gene traits...ie If you have a long leg dog (both genes are coded long) and a short leg dog (both genes are coded short...you will not get any medium leg dogs...the gene is not there for medium legs). You will get all long leg dogs (assuming long leg coding is dominant). Now if you breed these long leg dogs that carry "one Long Leg gene and one short leg gene" with another Long Leg dog that also carries the combination of one Long gene/one short gene, you can definitely get some short leg dogs...but you will still not get a "blend" with medium legs. The only exception would be some kind of deformation.
  13. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    LOL sorry DD but I don't wtf that is supposed to mean. :p
  14. DieselDawg

    DieselDawg Good Dog

    Sorry, it was aimed at this statement:

    I got into an in depth conversation about whether or not American Bullies could, in fact, be of APBTs and AmStaffs bred for a certain type over a time. Her statement was that if you monkey around with breeding a type long enough, you can very well create a very different looking dog. So the theory that inbreeding could create that look is a valid one. Who knows though. It'd be nice to know what the real deal is, but it'd be a cold day in hell before that ever happened.

    My contention is that if you really breed APBTs with Amstaffs...you are only going to get traits that are already common to those two breeds. You are not going to get huge dogs with large heads ect. You would need to introduce a much larger breed into the mix to get those kind of changes. Now, I do know that there are some bigger than normal APBTs that are true and meet comfirmation standards (proportional build)...but you are not going to get a completely different looking dog with traits that are not inherent between the two parents.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2008
  15. megschristina

    megschristina Moderator

    What about the english bulldog, isn't that exactly how it became the mess it is today?
  16. DieselDawg

    DieselDawg Good Dog

    There is a difference when you start inbreeding or close linebreeding and end up with almost completely homozygous DNA strands. Genetic coding also comes into play with concerns to Homones and Pituitary Glands...which can also affect growth. It definitely is not an easy concept to grasp without a bunch of reading. Basically, breeders might think they are breeding dogs with short leg gene pairs when in reality they are breeding dogs with Hormone/Pituitary Gland atributes instead. They end up with short leg dogs but for the wrong reasons. Eventually it leads to infertile offspring in most cases. (this is a very over simplified example)
  17. BlueRose_Kennel

    BlueRose_Kennel Little Dog

    Hmmm- DD I am a little confused as well. I'm a biology major and my concentration is genetics so I feel that I am pretty educated on the subject. You refer to gene pairs as "one long leg gene and one short leg gene" , etc but that's not really how genes work. You have dominate genes and recessive genes in both parents and those genes are recombined independently in each pup so even if you breed 2 APBT's that are say from different bloodlines, you are going to get a combination of different traits in the pups. Now, if you continue INBREEDING (not line breeding- not even CLOSE line breeding, I mean like brother/sister, mother/son, etc.) the dogs with the desired traits, eventualy you are going to eliminate all other traits for better or for worse...
  18. Miakoda

    Miakoda GRCH Dog

    The English Bulldog has a lot of Pug influence in it. More than some want to admit.

    However, the change of the EB has evolved over the past 50+ years and can be seen in photos. The change in these "American Bullies" happened in 10 years or less.....and that just can't be explained by inbreeding and selective breeding entirely......it's too short of a time for that drastic and variation of a change. Other breeds were introduced plain and simple.

    Punnett square, people. ;)
  19. Arrowhead

    Arrowhead Good Dog

    Thanks BlueRose for asking what my poor fried brain couldn't find the words to ask...good grief, I need a vacation or something- my mind is so scrambled lately!
  20. BlueRose_Kennel

    BlueRose_Kennel Little Dog

    LOL! My pleasure! I love talking about breeding and bloodlines and genetics... guess that's why it's my major! ;)

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