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Health Testing and Breeding

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by odnarb, Jul 8, 2011.

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  1. VonKromeHaus

    VonKromeHaus Good Dog

    Knee issues are a huge thing in this breed. Look at all the ACL problems that run in this breed as well which directly relates to their rear angulation and conformation!

    Cliff- you really do surprise me. Your views are so hypocritical about breeding. So, what's the problem with health testing if these lines are SO healthy??

    Boogie- Why don't you pay to health test your own dogs? Prove to people that your lines are as healthy as you say they are! It's not very expensive!

    I wasn't saying that you don't want muscle mass but for endurance you want LEAN muscle NOT bulky muscle.
  2. Boogieman

    Boogieman Good Dog Premium Member

    This is a useless thread just like the other 87x it's been "discussed" on here LOL

    Close it up LOLOLOLOL
  3. crimsonghost

    crimsonghost Little Dog

    I like sinead O'connor.
  4. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    And my point is this. You may know your status. However If they place those carrier pups in homes they do not know 100% if they are going to do the right thing. Which means that they are still contributing to the problem. They are producing dogs that can produce an affected dog. They are still continuing the disease.

    If it is that big of a problem then maybe the gene pool needs to be pruned.

    Possibly. But more irrational reasoning. But you sure as hell can not say that people that do breed a known health issue is part of any solution. Because you know and still are doing it. LOL

    However it does not excuse the fact that when health testing is done. And the results are still showing defects. The dog is still bred.

    It is funny. When people are called out on it. Then the first thing they say is well do you health test. Well what good is your health test if you continue to breed more carriers or affected dogs. The damn health test means nothing. The betterment of the breed means nothing.

    Health testing is a great tool. But you can not fault someone who chooses not to health test and be the same person who is breeding a tested dog that came back with a defect. That makes no sense.

    And I do not want to hear well I can be smart about it. In the long run it is not smart. You are STILL producing a defect. And the excuse that well he/she is just a carrier not an actual affected dog. Seriously? It sounds like a bunch of excuses to make the person feel better. It is heart breaking to find out your prized dog is a cull.

    My whole point is once a health issue is known/found the dog should not be bred. Plain and simple. To each his own I guess.

    ---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 PM ----------

    For the Conditioning/Working debate go to

  5. Boogieman

    Boogieman Good Dog Premium Member

    Bravo Cynthia!!!

    Thanks for splitting the thread. Some people just couldn't stop no matter how many times it was asked. LOL
  6. simms

    simms Good Dog

    I don't think I've spoken to you like you were stupid. I happen to know a shit ton of apbts that are babesiosis positive. An the last active dogman I spoke with about this, informed me that it is prevelant now and the only thing to do is expose your animals to it and hopefully past it. You should also know that this cat is not alone in this. There are many folks that practice it. An the apbt has infact been infected with vwd. If you don't want tohealth test. Fine don't. But dont sit here and act like you. Know something about something you clearly don't.
  7. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    When did I say that you spoke to me like I was stupid...? I'm confused.

    I don't see vWD as a massive threat to APBTs. I didn't mean to insinuate that no APBT has ever had it although I realize I sounded that way. For all I know there may have been cases of Wobblers in APBTs too but you don't hear people raving about it. But testing working dogs is in my opinion overrated. Culling any animal with babesia symptoms is how I would go about it. I don't pretend to be a breeder, dunno if I ever will be but I sure ain't now. I'm just giving my opinion and you seem to be mighty offended by it.
  8. ColbyDogs

    ColbyDogs Big Dog

    I feel for most people who breed, yes, health testing is a helpful tool considering most people who are breeding have no friggin clue about their dogs history or family linage. As for life-long breeders that know what they own, and do not suffer from kennel blindness ? Yea, i'll take a gamble on the non-health tested dogs before I ever consider buying a dog off of someone who health tests, especially when that is there only marketing tool and is only being used as a selling tool.

    Thats the thing, a good breeder has his/her name backing up their stock. They do not need gimmicks, instead, they go off of their earned reputation by producing top quality dogs year after year.

    Bottom line, know who and where you get your dogs from, all the rest will fall into place. A health certificate is a bonus, however for myself, its not required because I know who I get my dogs from and how they were bred.
  9. simms

    simms Good Dog

    My appologies. I get heated over this particular issue. An to methis is as bad if not worse than rubbing. Unfortunately it has become common practice.
  10. Beth L

    Beth L Little Dog

    Vwd is in the APBT breed. About 10 yrs ago now people started to test for it and found many carriers and affected. We do not have a DNA test though. The test we do have is not 100% so people would test 3, 4 or even 5 times till they got a clear result and be happy with it. I do not know of anyone testing for it now though.
  11. Tiffseagles

    Tiffseagles GRCH Dog Premium Member

    My first point was that carriers that leave the breeder's hands need to be speutered so the breeder does have total control of whether or not it is being passed on. Breeders do have a responsibility to know what is going on with the dogs that they produce and speutering, I believe, is a big part of that. My exact quote:

    This is my feeling for any serious genetic defect with this particular mode of inheritance/phenotype.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2011
  12. Zoe

    Zoe GRCH Dog

    I tested Scarling and she didn't have it although I only did it once. The vet never suggested I should test more than once. Hmmm....
  13. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I know I read it and I agree with that statement. I did not have to respond to everything. Should I have said I agree.
  14. Tiffseagles

    Tiffseagles GRCH Dog Premium Member

    OK. I thought you had missed the first part. I couldn't tell. I know things get missed easily with these long threads. :)
  15. simms

    simms Good Dog

    Typically ppl do not consider the possibility of their animal being affected until it is in crisis and some one with experience or in the medical field suggest they may have an issue.

    No one wants to talk about their dirty secrets.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2011
  16. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    LOL yea.

    But that is exactly what I said 4 pages ago. And Carla said that no that would be ruining a good dog.
  17. BethBurgess2007

    BethBurgess2007 Little Dog

    This is my opinion on the matter: If I was a real dogman breeding hard core game dogs, no I would not health test. Or, if I was buying a dog from someone like that, I would not expect health tested parents.

    If a person is selling dogs to the public, they should health test. If they are only breeding for themselves, or close friends, that is up to them.

    Are the gamebred dogs healthier than show bred dogs? I like to believe so.

    Are amstaffs, UKC show apbts, and adba show bred dogs the same? Maybe, it depends on the pedigree and what is "up close" .

    I know dogs bought right from hard core game dog yards that have hip dysplasia, and patella issues. Also, if a dog is put on a chain it's whole life and never jumped or worked hard, you may never see hip or knee issues. Which with some gamedogs that is what happens.

    In my opinion, if a person is breeding working or show dogs they should be doing some health testing. At least testing for the issues that affect their line or breed.

    I believe in culling more than most people, but by the time the issues show themselves through "work", the dogs have usually been bred several times.

    Plus it cracks me up when people state: " My line does have health problems, because I cull or only choose healthy stock.

    Also, a lot of people want "dis" other people and other sports, that they themselves have never done, or could never do. It is also so easy to beleive everything you read, or are told, rather than learning by experience and time, and figuring out for yourself.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2011
  18. Sydney

    Sydney Big Dog

    Really good posting Beth!
  19. shadowwolf

    shadowwolf Good Dog

    Unfortunately for a good many folks, they don't give a lick about that extra expense for health testing and utilizing the tool that is out there. To them, their dogs are healthy based on the non-health tested history behind the dogs and for those people, there is no convincing, only heated debates that typically spiral into trivial and childish name calling and other needless drama.

    I, personally, (regardless if I intended to sell puppies to the public or not) intend to health test all potential breeding stock for my own piece of mind - even if that dog or bitch never sires or whelps a litter. Prior to competitively weight pulling (and I'm not talking the basic weight pulling title like the UKC's United Weight Puller title!), my dogs have x-rays done to make sure that they are of sound body. Do I submit these to the OFA? No. The reason for that is they're typically preliminary since I debut most dogs around 18 months if they're ready and OFA doesn't accept them until they're 24 months minimum.

    The bare minimum I'll do on a dog is hips and heart when it comes to OFA and CRD2 and Ataxia for other blood tests.

    I've had Lyric's cardiac done (and I have to redo it since I failed to submit it in a timely manner - bad human!) and will eventually get her hips done as well. She will likely have her patellas done, though they've been cleared by a vet for weight pull and that matters the most to me.

    Ryker's OFA hip x-rays are being submitted currently (they were done last week) and he's had his patellas and cardiac done. He'll also have the CRD2 test done the next time they run a special on it too (I'd rather save money that way).

    Below is a view of his hips that I was lucky enough to get a photograph of since they didn't have digital ones. He was sedated for these - ever try getting that goober to calm down? Yeah...so not an easy task without drugs!

    This was done after 4 years (roughly) of competitive weight pull in the APA, UKC, AADR and ADBA. The vet was pretty pleased with them, as am I. I'm hoping we get at least a Good rating on them.

  20. bahamutt99

    bahamutt99 Stealth ninja

    I health-test. I know where my dogs came from, and have no reason to doubt. My only intact dog is Terra, and I lay hands on her 12-year-old mother daily. Her father was that hallowed gamebred stuff, so no worries there. ;) But yeah, I health-test. Certificates are on my FB, and her results are posted in the public OFA database. And that expensive CRD2 test is pending. I just can't afford it right now. Terra's health-testing Loki was health-tested a few years after she was spayed. Loki's health-testing What have I got to lose? Some money? Peh. Most of that goes into my dogs anyway.

    One comment about the thought that as long as the dog can work, its okay if its dysplastic. I agree that the ability to work is important. But what happens when that dog gets to be 9, 10, 12 years old? You have a dog that worked its heart out while its grit and spirit carried it through, and now they're feeling the results of busting ass on a broken body. I'm with my dogs for their whole life. I cannot in good conscience do that to them, nor would I want to pass that heartache on to somebody else.

    ---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------

    You hear about one of these, get at me. I need to save some money, too. LOL
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2011
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