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Health Testing and Breeding

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by odnarb, Jul 8, 2011.

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  1. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    My replies in red
  2. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    Like I said, if this was pre-76 I wouldn't buy off anything but 1+xWs. But it ain't, lmao. So you take what you can get.
  3. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    The "future" was looking pretty bleak for Am Stafs before the ataxia test came out. Today, the breed is MUCH better off because of the test and, yes, responsibly breeding carriers.*

    Without the test, many more affecteds would be bred (disease doesn't show itself until 5 or later) and many, many more dogs would have carrier status.

    Using the test and responsibly BREEDING carriers means we are producing FEWER of them...WHAT is the downside?

  4. VonKromeHaus

    VonKromeHaus Good Dog

    I was thinking about the study as taking NON- Health tested dogs of each breed and health testing them then doing the study off those results, that is the only way a study like that would be fair to each type.

    Of course it is apples to oranges where some people are concerned. But the ADBA Conformation ring isn't the be all end all that some here think it is. I've seen some extremely nicely conditioned dogs at those shows....but I've also seen MUCH nicer SPORT dogs conditioned...just talking APBTs now.

    It's not an assumption about conditioning. It is the truth. ANY breed, any DOG needs to be CONDITIONED for performance and while those ADBA dogs are conditioned nicely, some of them have NO endurance as they aren't conditioned properly and if we're talking origins, shouldn't the APBT be full of endurance?? And conditioning a dog for a STRENUOUS sport is HARDER than conditionind for the conformation ring. Not assumption, fact.

    Cliff- You amaze me. Your views are well...a little off. So, what do you feel about health testing in the Dobe for VwD or DCM?
  5. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Carla in your situation I understand why you are doing it. I just do not agree with it. But honestly what I agree with or don't agree with has no bearing on your life. It is just my opinion.

    But the downside is that you will be producing carrier pups. And therefore still continuing the genetic defect. Because those carrier pups could produce affected pups if not bred responsibly.

    If you were to cull (euth or spay/neuter) the carriers then IMO it would be the responsible thing to do. You would still be able to breed your carrier male. But you would be eliminating the genetic defect from the gene pool.
  6. chloesredboy2

    chloesredboy2 Good Dog

    Cliff IS amazing,he's as cool as me.

    (Sorry Cynthia,I'll shut up now.You know it's hard for me to control my mouth, but I'm trying):D
  7. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Replies in red
  8. crimsonghost

    crimsonghost Little Dog

    So by you saying it's a FACT, you know exactly how I condition my dogs. So you know for a fact How everyone conditions their dogs??? I think your FACTS are a little off. I have a dog that's about 10( you've seen her pics from Cynthia) named Ginger. Who to this day still has the endurance without conditioning, to catch a hog. Hell I let her have a couple chickens last year. She did not return until she got the chickens. I got her from a friend who bred the brakes off her and now she's a fat out of shape house dog but will still chase any animal you let her. She will not stop till she gets what she's after. So let's talk more about facts and endurance.
  9. odnarb

    odnarb Little Dog

    If I have wrongly assumed that you have obtained dogs from people who do not health test, or that you yourself breed without health testing, you can always post the OFA links. I would be more than happy to apologize.

    I will give you that a keep is harder than most AKC competitors put into their dogs, but I don't remotely think that it's "working."

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
  10. crimsonghost

    crimsonghost Little Dog

    Why would she post links of the ofa results?What do we have to prove to you?
  11. odnarb

    odnarb Little Dog

    To prove that I'm making assumptions?

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
  12. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Can you comprehend written word? Lol I would suggest actually reading what is posted.

    I do not need nor want your apology. You opinion means nothing to me.

    You however are good at avoiding and attempting to deflect. But not really adding anything of worth to the discussion. Just a bunch of half ass insults and talking out your rear.

    But good try.

    Lol Health testing means nothing if you continue to breed genetic defects.

    Wow all I said was breeding a known health issue, regardless of breed. And all the AmStaff people get riled up. And even bring more AmStaff people here to help cosign their reasonings for breeding genetic defects.

    This was never an AmStaff debate. But it seems as though Maybe it hit a nerve.
  13. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    A carrier itself is not really a "defect".... 2 OFA excellents can produce an outwardly dysplastic dog and in THAT case, you didn't even breed a "defective" dog.*

    I don't think you quite understand the reason for, nature of, or use of genetic tests/health testing, or that population genetics when it comes to genetic diseases is about reducing frequencies, not 100% elimination, although that CAN happen with enough time.

  14. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    I'll only buy Dobes off health tested and titled parents.
  15. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I completely understand. Just because I disagree does no mean I do not understand.

    The dog still carries a defective gene. That can be passed down to offspring which could produce a defective dog. And I am not just talking AmStaffs and Ataxia. This is not just am AmStaff debate.

    How many times have I said a known disease, regardless of breed. If you knowingly breed it. It is about breeders realizing that and if you choose to breed a carrier then do the right thing and cull the carrier offspring. Wouldn't it be better to eliminate than reduce.

    You have the power to eliminate. Why settle for just reducing. What would you lose?

    The only response I get is gene pool. If a certain breed has that many genetic defects maybe it should be pruned.

    You used OFA as an example. However with clears you can not produce carriers. So it is not the same type of argument.

    You have your opinion and I have mine. A person's breeding program is greater than the dogs that are bred. There is a bigger picture.
  16. simms

    simms Good Dog

    The lady that I mentioned in this thread breeds dobermans. Dobermans are plagued with some horrible genetic issues. Wobblers,vw to name a couple. But I am by no means an expert in dobermans. health testing is important. Testing should be speccific to breed.the reality is sporting and show are,equaly to blame for the mass issues of pure breeds.

    ---------- Post added at 08:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

    a carrier is a carrier no bueno!
  17. Tiffseagles

    Tiffseagles GRCH Dog Premium Member

    My opinions are:

    1) if you choose to breed a dog that is a carrier for a disease that results in poor quality of life/death, then you need to make sure that any carriers that you produce from that litter are speutered before they leave your possession. If you choose to keep a carrier and will test the other dog before breeding so you are not carrier X carrier and have the same speuter policy for carrier pups from the next litter, it is fine because there is no chance that you will be producing affected dogs. (this is assuming carriers are not symptomatic, if they are then all carriers need to be culled.)

    2) if an animal has a condition that is causing them to live in pain every day of their life, such as dysplastic hips, I don't care how good of a worker it is. It should not be passing that quality of life onto the next generation. At some point it stops becoming about what we want, and it does become about the dogs and what is best for them.

    3) If you choose to breed a dog with a known health defect such as ataxia, you are irresponsible. However, you are just as irresponsible if you have the means to find out your dog's status (normal, carrier, ataxic), choose not to and then breed said dog. I think it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black when you choose to breed a dog who's status you don't know and therefore will have unknown results, but criticize someone who knows their dogs status and knows 100% that they will not produce any symptomatic dogs. Call me crazy, but a 100% guarantee is better than a crap shoot.

    In conclusion, health testing, to me, is a very important part of making breeding selections. It is a tool we have at our disposal to make better dogs, both as companions and workers. Use it.
  18. FransterDoo

    FransterDoo Big Dog

    how about this:
    If you're breeding UNKNOWN carriers of any health defect, you're part of the problem, not the solution. If you can't look in the mirror and be honest with yourself about that, well that shows what kind of character you have as a person.

    I guess it's a 2 way mirror then.
  19. Boogieman

    Boogieman Good Dog Premium Member

    17 years of the line being bred that I own and never once an affected dog popping up is my proof. If you want to send the cash, I'll test for whatever you want me to test for. Knowing the line of dogs you breed is what it's all about. People that buy different turds from anybody under the sun and crossing it into their dogs without knowing jack squat about the dogs, the line, or the people behind them is a huge part of the problem.

    Health testing is over rated. That's my opinion, but the people that are babbling and pushing for health testing, then finding out their dogs are affected by a horrible health defect, then breeding it anyway is what it appears the discussion has went to. So if/when I see any defects, then I can assure you they won't be bred.....EVER.
  20. cliffdog

    cliffdog Good Dog

    When APBTs start coming down with Wobblers, vWD, and DCM, I'll start health testing lmao. Until then, hard culling is the name of the game.
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