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Health Testing and Breeding

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by odnarb, Jul 8, 2011.

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  1. odnarb

    odnarb Little Dog

    SPLIT FROM ANOTHER THREAD



    Wouldn't the ideal be to have BOTH? It doesn't need to be one or the other. How about working dogs with stamina that are health tested?

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  2. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    I do not feel health testing is a must if you know your dogs history and they have came from proven healthy stock....just my opinion
     
  3. MJJean

    MJJean GRCH Dog

    If I were interested in strictly show bred dogs, I would want to see health testing on the parents. I think with a working pup the health testing the parents received was doing the job. Can't work with heart or joint problems.
     
  4. I agree with the health-testing front for all dogs. You can know your lines and your dogs, but to me, that's not enough. You'll never know everything. You'll never know all the siblings of the dogs in your lines, and can never guarantee all their owners to health test and report the results. You won't know what's carried but not necessarily shown. And unless you own both sides of the lines or can place unfailing trust in the person with the other side of the lines, you can't control the other lines. And even then, the things I mentioned above still still apply.
    The health testing, on the other hand, is a step closer to knowing. Still, freak occurrences happen. Still, things can be carried and not crop up for generations. But I'd rather pay for that health testing and have a little more peace of mind.

    I also agree with the person who said 'the dog doesn't know its cost'. A high price does not make a good dog. A dog's value is to its owner and can't be priced in nickels and dimes. I know roughly what it costs to put training, trialing, showing and health testing and the like into a dog and would have no trouble (besides the fact that I don't have all the money in the world) paying for the dog that I want provided I knew and more than liked what I was paying for. I love both of my dogs and they will forever be worth infinitely more than any money I have put into them. And I think they're good (along with many neighborhood families, children, local business owners, city police officers and city workers, numerous trainers, handlers, trial judges and show judges), which makes them so.
     
  5. odnarb

    odnarb Little Dog


    It always makes me laugh when people say this. In dogs developed for blood sports, do you really think that a little joint pain is going to slow them down? What if the dog has a small obstruction below the aortic valve that is present but doesn't obstruct blood flow enough to cause syncope episodes or a significant murmur? Do you realize that these affected, yet not obviously symptomatic dogs can produce pups that are severely afflicted?


    I've seen the xrays of crippled gamebred dogs. And, I know of many that have had heart problems. I've been on listservs and forums over the years with many cases ofsomebody reporting that Sparky or Margie was found dead on chain of unknown causes. I'm sure all of them came from dogs that SEEMED fine.
     
  6. Schwe

    Schwe Good Dog

    +1

    My bulldog was NEVER sypmtomatic until the day she died, but x-rays showed us that she had hip dysplasia. She could jump, run, leap, and act like 100% crazy bulldog. 9/10 people, especially BYB's, would have bred her several times and said that her activity/agility was proof positive of good hips. WRONG. She was a very nice dog with a great temperament, worked, but I decided early on that she wouldn't be bred. She was a pet and spayed at 8 mos.
     
  7. Zoe

    Zoe GRCH Dog

    I want to get Salem all health tested up. I'm VERY interested to see how she stacks up.
     
  8. Team Peanut

    Team Peanut GRCH Dog

    i have done Peanut's OFA testing and got great results i still want to get him tested with optigen
     
  9. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    With puppies NOTHING IS GUARANTEED!

    They could come excellent stock . No health issues hell even health tested stock and still have health issues. At work we had a golden puppy at 10 months old. OFA great and excellent hips parents. Come up with NO hip sockets. The vet seen the parents results. Fluke yes. But it still happened. And they payed a nice chunk of change for this pup. AKC CH all rough his his ped. Their breeder was great and replaced the pup.

    I can not see paying more than $500 for a pup. Just can't. Because they may come from the best stock out there and still have major flaws or health issues. May appear perfect standard as a pup and turn out not as they grow older.

    Now an older dog I could see paying a little more for. Because like someone else said you know what you are getting as far as conformation goes. However still health is no guaranty. Even off health tested parents. That is why you should deal with people you know and trust. References ALWAYS!

    I have learned there are to many shady people in this dog game!
     
  10. odnarb

    odnarb Little Dog


    I'm not arguing that it CAN'T happen. But, the odds are greatly stacked in your favor when you have a pedigree full of health tested dogs.

    I assume that you meant OFA Good, as there is no "Great" rating. What were scores like on their littermates? I'd rather get a dog off an OFA Fair from a litter of Goods and Excellents than off an Excellent from a litter with dysplastic dogs.

    There is NO good reason to not health test. Think your dogs are healthy? Prove it. I've seen too many dysplastic gamedogs and heard too many tales of young dogs dropping dead for me to remotely buy that however the dogs are being "worked" is an effective screening tool. Science is our friend, and it should be utilized to improve the breed.

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  11. pitbullmomma28

    pitbullmomma28 Little Dog

    Yea, its never a sure thing with puppies, which is why show people/responsible breeders are taking chances when getting puppies from high priced stock, but I have yet to see one case in the show dogs that I have bought and those of my friends that show were we have had a problem. Sure it happens, but it isn't that often. Especially with dogs that have been bred for generations and generations without the health concern coming up in their lines. At eight weeks old a puppy looks as close at it can to what its conformation is going to be as an adult, which is why breeders really shouldn't be determining whether its going to be a good show dog until then, but then again anything can happen and the dog that looked perfect at eight weeks might develop an underbite for a breed that calls for scissor bite. Its just how things work, I am willing to take the risk, I know plenty of breeders that are to. Its the dog world, and sadly nothing is ever for sure. Some breeders sell under a guarantee that if the dog has health issues or major to disqualifying faults as it gets older that they will replace the dog (if the owner wishes to, which is rarely the case as the owner usually does form a bond with the dog, and really could care less whether it has the faults or not) with a dog of greater or equal quality.
     
  12. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Yes I meant good. Damn iPhone changes shit all the time! LOL

    And We did not see the littermate's scores. The breeder's vet sent the parent's scores to my boss when the pup came up at 10 months with the deformity. And at that time the littermates were to young to OFA. However we were not sent any preliminary results either. But the breeder said no other pups were affected like this one. And my boss and the breeder's vet discussed the case. But the breeder did right by the owners and sent another pup.

    And as far as health testing goes if you choose to then do it. I am not saying you should not. However it still does not guaranty anything.

    I just seen an advertisement for a litter with Ataxia clear and Ataxia carrier pups. So people are still breeding carriers. And if some of those pups come back carriers and are bred to other carriers then what?

    ---------- Post added at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------

    Not true look at a thread we had on here when a pup was a pick and the head did not turn out correct. 8 weeks is STILL a crapshoot.

    I have seen pups CH out at 10/11 months and by the time they were 2 looked NOTHING like they did at 10 months.

    I will stand by my comment that with a pup NOTHING is guaranteed. And that is why I do not go out of my circle for dogs. I trust people I deal with and I have had to learn that the hard way.

    I have only had to "buy" one dog. And it was more of a trade than a "buy". The rest have been given to me. Or loaned out for a breeding. And I will keep it that way. I have to many good dogs available to me for me to go elsewhere.
     
  13. pitbullmomma28

    pitbullmomma28 Little Dog

    Breeders need to be responsible about things, and no matter how pretty a line is, they shouldn't be breeding carriers. Its stupid to do, but people do it. People just need to stop buying puppies from people breeding carriers.

    And All I said was that is the best time to see what its going to look like. Puppies are not a guarantee, I totally agree with you there. But in order for them to bond best with their owners they need to be sold as puppies, and the "higher quality" ones are going to be more expensive, because if they turn out how the breeder thinks they will, then the people will most likely breed em. In order to get people to not breed as much, they sell the higher quality puppies more expensive because usually a person would rather buy the cheaper puppy (the one that comes with a spay/neuter agreement) and the people that are serious about showing and breeding will buy the more expensive puppy. This is my opinion though.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2011
  14. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

    Yeah I agree, it really is a crapshoot. I mean, you have a better chance at getting what you want from a breeder with proven, health tested lines, but there is still that chance that something could happen! They're dogs after all, not robots.

    I have a friend who got a Lab pup from a breeder in Cali (I'm not sure who, and I haven't looked into who the parents are, etc.), shipped him from there to VA. Dog is Piper's age, so 19 months, and has "one of the worst sets of hips" the vet has ever seen (I know the parents were OFA'd, not sure of their rating). Dog is also displaying signs of HA.. came after the owner for no apparent reason the other day, just jumped out of the pool and grabbed her arm, pretty nasty. FWIW, I told her to PTS and to PLEASE contact her breeder. I haven't heard from her since I talked to her last, so no clue what she's going to do.. but that just goes to show you really never know.
     
  15. pitbullmomma28

    pitbullmomma28 Little Dog

    Thats very true. Another thing thats true, is a lot of breeders don't know what they are doing. I've seen some breeders show pups as "show puppies" and they have major flaws at eight weeks, when they did their "evaluation" Which is why before I buy a dog I want to either go see it in person, or see videos of how it moves, holding it stacked, etc. (Videos are more complicated though, cause you can only see the dog, and can't feel it) but I agree its never a sure thing.
     
  16. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    An adult dog can still bond with the owners. That is proven time and time again.

    But yes people prefer pups. At 8 weeks a puppy will look as close to conformation as a 8 week pup can look. Nothing more, nothing less.

    As far as bing serious about showing people will pay more. Not true either. People will pay as much as they want to pay. If you know the right people you do not have to pay a dime hell a penny.

    I am not denying that you have a better chance. However all I am saying it is not guaranteed. I have also seen dogs with excellent ratings from untested parents. So yes if you screen you can get a better chance. A CHANCE not a guaranty. But that chance can also be done without testing. But if you screen you would not breed if the dog is not up to par. You would not be knowingly breeding more issues into the gene pool. And that is what it boils down to . Not knowingly breeding defects.

    And Kady the HA could be brought on by the pain. Many dogs will act out if they are in pain. Even to owners.
     
  17. odnarb

    odnarb Little Dog


    That's the point of health testing. You test to see if they are clear or carriers, and breed carriers only to clears. Tossing out all of the carriers isn't necessarily the best option for the breed, especially when it's so easy to avoid breeding affected dogs. You could lose 1/4 to half or more of the genetic material in the breed just to support people that are too much of a tightwad to submit a simple DNA test.

    If somebody breeds a carrier to a carrier because they are too cheap to do health testing, they deserve to be publicly shamed. The same goes for CRD2 in APBTs. If anybody EVER produces another of those, they deserve to be called out. Honestly if they are producing dysplastic or SAS affected dogs and not doing any health testing, they should be called out, too. While non-affected dogs can produce those, if you aren't even attempting to screen for it, IMO you are being neglectful.

    I recently saw a litter of ACD pups. Both parents had OFA rated hips. One parent was clear for PRA, the other a carrier. The pups were all tested for PRA by the breeder before going home, as well as BAER tested. The sticker price on the pups was $500. And, that's how it SHOULD be done.
     
  18. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    I understand the point of health testing. lol My whole point of posting was that nothing is guaranteed with a pup. That is why I (if I had to) would not pay over a certain amount for a pup. An Adult dog depends.

    However if you know your dog is a carrier then you should not breed it. To better the gene pool. While yes breedng it to a clear dog is more ethical if you were to breed. But knowingly breeding a carrier is not IMO. Because you know. If any of those pups come up carriers either cull or keep so then you KNOW. Becuase while you may do the right thing. Others may not. And breed more affected dogs. I know this is a hot debate among Am Staff owners.

    As far as CRD2 here is a breeding chart on what will be affected (I am sure you already know, but others might not) And it is basically the same as % as Ataxia

    [​IMG]

    Link to Ataxia
    http://www.amstaff.org/documents/Ataxia Chart Revised.pdf


    I know of a kennel that is producing dogs with heart murmurs. While yes they take the dogs to the Vet as pups to check. And they then place the dogs elsewhere. However they are still breeding the parents. While I do not believe they are testing the parents. However after the first litter of pups with heart defects you would think that they would either test or if they do not, they would not breed the parents for ethical reason.
     
  19. kady05

    kady05 Krypto Super Dog

    Yeah that's why she took him to the vet, to rule out pain. He's now on a slew of meds. and has continued to try to bite her. I just couldn't live with a dog like that.. she's terrified of him. No thank you!
     
  20. Cynthia

    Cynthia Good Dog

    Yea I hear you! We had a client at the practice I worked at in ATL that had a Bloodhound that he had to take a shotgun out when he fed him. Umm I think not!

    Yea either that dog is not right, or the pain is that bad, or he has no respect for the owner. Either way no real quality of life there.
     
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