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Gamebred Guardian?

Discussion in 'Today's APBT' started by EDOGZ818, May 21, 2008.

  1. DeeDirtyDawg

    DeeDirtyDawg Good Dog

    This question is moot. HA isn't desired or necessary for a good guard dog.
    Yes, an apbt could be trained to guard. Barking is an essy thing to teach.
    Having the dog be HA on top of it is just stupid.
     
  2. retro

    retro Little Dog

    i'm curious as to how many of you who speak against the role of aggresion in man work actually have any experience training/breeding/or working dogs in that particular field. and i don't mean on the SCHH field either, although that would be a start...
     
  3. DeeDirtyDawg

    DeeDirtyDawg Good Dog

    My curs have been bred and trained for nearly 20 years (for the last 10 /by me) for pp and guarding. They are junkyard dogs. When they're off duty, they are big lugs. When they are guarding, they are trained manstoppers. They are NOT aggressive by nature, but extremely protective, dominant, and territorial. The fact that they are not HA makes them predictable, trainable, and trustworthy.
    And yes, they have been propven, many times. Once there was a guy in a tree all night, another time they only managed to get the guys pants as he went over the fence.... with his wallet inside. they are even tempered and reliable with kids, but don't tolerate intruders.
    I'm wondering whether YOU have ever raised and trained any dogs- or whether a PP orguard dog in your eyesis just an untrained, unpredictable, vicious brute- it certainly seems like that's what you are going for, but a good guard dog should be better than just a mean dog.

    ---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 PM ----------

    My curs have been bred and trained for nearly 20 years (for the last 10 /by me) for pp and guarding. They are junkyard dogs. When they're off duty, they are big lugs. When they are guarding, they are trained manstoppers. They are NOT aggressive by nature, but extremely protective, dominant, and territorial. The fact that they are not HA makes them predictable, trainable, and trustworthy.
    And yes, they have been propven, many times. Once there was a guy in a tree all night, another time they only managed to get the guys pants as he went over the fence.... with his wallet inside. they are even tempered and reliable with kids, but don't tolerate intruders.
    I'm wondering whether YOU have ever raised and trained any dogs- or whether a PP orguard dog in your eyesis just an untrained, unpredictable, vicious brute- it certainly seems like that's what you are going for, but a good guard dog should be better than just a mean dog.
     
  4. GBOYD

    GBOYD Puppy

    i have met many rotweilers, dobermans, and they are not h/a. It may be responsible ownership the reason why they are not but i happen to be very fond of quite a few dobies and rotties. I havent had any luck with shepherds though. Most that i have encountered are h/a.
     
  5. retro

    retro Little Dog

    and when triggered, will show aggression towards humans - no?

    or is the above all done in fun and games, and if the guy in the tree w/no pants wanted to come down and play they would have been friendly? cause that sure sounds like a triggered aggressive response towards a human to me. but hey, maybe i'm confused...

    yep


    now where would you get that i think a dog like that should not be trained? please, show me where i've said anything like that - ever... also, dogs are not "vicious" or "mean" that's a human thing.
     
  6. UAYEB

    UAYEB Little Dog

    noooo. gamebred apbt are 2 nice with people (strangers) why dont u use other breed that was created 2 do that job. :D
     
  7. axion5150

    axion5150 Little Dog

    "you are correct, i was injured during my Iraq tour a bit ago and just medically retired today and i am no where close to a threat but when in the desert, that's all i knew...what i was taught, and that's how i acted due to just that."
     
  8. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    H/A is dangerous with out proper management. That goes for any breed , but of course APBT's are in another category.

    I have had experience with H/A dogs & have been on both sides. The ones I know, are extremely stable, gentle & loving with their family.

    Strangers? Well , that's another issue.
    Some anti social people , have anti social dogs. Sometimes, unintentionally , through mistaken upbringing. ( IE: Dog shows aggression & they try & soothe them with calm petting & " It's ok", etc.... )

    I can't judge another persons dog , or their need for it.
    Pitbulls are naturally H/A. It had to be bred out of them & it can still resurface. Keep that in mind.

    Non H/A APBT's are unnatural.
     
  9. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    EDOGZ.... Pitbulls are naturally Human Aggressive?? Where do you get this information? I've NEVER heard anyone claim that the breed is naturally human aggressive.... naturally animal aggressive... yes.... aggressive toward humans... no!
     
  10. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    I got that info from reading.
    When people say H/A has been bred out of the dogs , that means that it was present before it was bred out.

    Gameness was Bred in.
    Obviously, some breeders haven't actually bred gameness in, & using that logic, backed by personal observations , H/A hasn't been bred out.
    ( Speaking in %100 totality )
     
  11. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    I disagree completely EDOGZ... These dogs were never known for human aggression that I can find any reference to... either written or through talking to the old Dogmen that I am close with. And when Human aggression did creep in... more often than not it was culled away.

    The dogs have never been known for their human aggression on their loyalty to their owners... again thats why they were so easily stolen and some of the best of the best pit dogs were stolen.
     
  12. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    I understand NC, but as you said, it did creep in & was then culled.
    It crept "BACK" in. Certain things don't creep in.
    IE: Bird Dog / Pointing

    Ch Chinaman was allegedly a man biter.
    I have seen many APBT's H/A. They aren't pit worthy because of that , but that is a different topic, since it is "ILLEGAL".

    H/A was BRED OUT IMHO to make the dogs more adapt to sporting needs.
    ( IE: handling )

    As far as guard dogs , performance wise , not political, it's hard to imagine a more formidable opponent for a bad guy , than an H/A or PP trained APBT.
     
  13. XXX

    XXX Good Dog

    I think it creeps in simply because they are dogs... and deep down in the recesses they have aggressive "genes" being hunters and what not and this that and the other.... but I believe before the APBT was the APBT those dogs were being bred to be less human aggressive...but by the time they came to the PIT bull.. aggression was long gone and when it does pop up it needs to be done away with.

    But I know many Dogmen that has said they would take an Ace pit dog that was human aggressive and they'd match the hell out of it simply because the reward outweighs the risk....

    But I can't think of one literary source or Dogman source that would or has said that it is natural for them to be human aggressive.. or that their roots come from human aggressive dogs.
     
  14. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    That's the best literary source I've seen so far ^^^^^ that supports what I'm saying. The H/A is natural.

    Dogmen have bred it out , or tried, just like they have tried to breed gameness in. TRIED.

    H/A traditionally, has been culled & attempted to be removed, that is an undeniable fact , but what is also undeniable, is that it was there & that's why it needed breeding out.

    Ace H/A dog?
    Understandable, but one attack = foul , so with higher stakes in play, H/A is very undesirable , & in the event of a match losing foul, it makes the dog utterly useless as a Match dog.
     
  15. Poisoned

    Poisoned GRCH Dog

    Would you be so kind, Edog, as to tell me where you read HA is normal for an APBT?

    Let's pretend the APBT doesn't exist for a minute.
    I own GSDs.
    In vicious fights, they will redirect on a human if they think the human is also attacking them, pulling at them ect.
    They are NOT HA. If they were to start fighting GSDs, the GSD who bit would be removed from breeding. And so on. And you will end up after a long time of breeding a dog who wouldn't lay a tooth on a human.

    This is how APBTs are the way they are, any dog who redirected or showed aggression towards human was put down, in MOST cases. It didn't make it a HA breed.
     
  16. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    It seems like a trick question , because of the wording ( Thread title, not your post ) but you are actually making my point , IMHO , just as NCPG did.

    If it was bred out, it had to be there in the first place.
    I don't have specific refrences of the reading material, because I don't value it as much as personal experience.

    Canines , by nature are H/A. They learned behavior to co-exist with man.
    How hard is it to PP train an APBT?
    Some can't be, granted, but the ones that can, don't take much.

    Over time, selective breeding has made most APBT's non aggressive , that is undisputed. The APBT was a MUTT at first. A Hodgepodge of assorted breeds, & eventually fine tuned to what we have today.

    To say H/A isn't naturally present , means all of the breeds that went into making the APBT didn't have the H/A trait either.

    I remember asking someone along time ago : " Does your dog bite?" The response I got was " Does he have teeth?"

    If they have teeth, they bite.
    Some won't under certain or any circumstances that they were in, but some will. Some will go hard body.

    I have a dog now, that is very social & have no doubt that if an intruder broke in & attacked me , the dog would defend me , or at least pull me off the intruder! Hahahaha
     
  17. bdcraft

    bdcraft Big Dog

    finnaly someone who is not into what books say but the knowledge of the dog. i have beating this hores about ha for months now. alot of people here think you wouldn't fight a ha dog but if only they knew it happens, but its hard to yell names when it is ill so i just try to argue

    ---------- Post added at 08:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------

    nc i didn't forget about you have the other side of the knowledge . almost everybody else has blinders on
     
  18. EDOGZ818

    EDOGZ818 Big Dog

    Of cousre H/A dogs were matched ( Coughs , while adding Pre-197? animal welfare act disclaimer ) , just generally not for high stakes.

    There is an alleged story about a dog , who lost a match , by count out , to a dog he killed , because he didn't scratch to win & take hold, because after he crossed his opponents line, he stopped & growled at the handler , while guarding his opponent's carcass.

    It was a low stakes, OTC , match , but he still lost. ( Allegedly , of course :D)
     

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