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"Game" dogs

Discussion in 'Bull Terrier' started by East Coast Canuck, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. "Game" dogs

    According to Wikipedia :
    "Game or Gameness is a quality of fighting dogs or working terriers that are selectively bred and conditioned from a very early age to develop traits of eagerness despite the threat of substantive injury. Dogs displaying this trait can also be described as persevering, ready and willing, full of fight, spirited, or plucky.[1]".
    Maybe I am reading too much between the lines on that definition, but it sounds like gameness refers to the fighting aspect of the breed. I loved my BT for his clownish personality, energetic spirit, loving disposition to all people and other animals, and unique look. I fail to understand why anyone would want a pet that is 'full of fight' and ignores threats of substantive injury to itself. I am assuming (and hoping) that when people talk about gameness, they are not including these aspects of how it is described according to wikipedia.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2010
  2. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    We do because we love this breed (APBT) and everything that comes with it. Gameness and the "fight" is what made the breed what it is, the fantastic amazing dog we love.

    If one hates hunting, I guess they wouldn't understand why someone would love the hunting instincts of the hound.
     
  3. Rogue Bullies

    Rogue Bullies Good Dog

    Game dog as in the drive the dog has. Working APBTs and like breeds are normally considered "game bred". It doesn't have to used for fighting or mean the dog is used to fight it just means the dog has a lot of drive and work ability.

    I personally love the gameness of bully breeds.
     
  4. btlover

    btlover Little Dog

    I've wondered that myself after reading some of these posts. A lot of people here seem to really dislike the "show" bts because of their lack of athleticism and drive. I however, love them for their personality, and will gladly take a less driven dog if it means I don't need to scan for other dogs everytime I take them for a walk. I've owned both types and while it was a very DA girl that won me over, she was a lot of work. To me, (good) breeders have done an excellent job and so far, bts have managed to stay off the BSL lists.
    Does anyone else here think that the 2 might go hand in hand?
     
  5. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    My bull terrier has a ton of drive, and is extremely athletic yet I do not have to scan for other dogs because he is dog friendly.
     
  6. Rogue Bullies

    Rogue Bullies Good Dog

    I don't believe in watering down breeds to make them into show pets. Just my opinion and I have nothing against actual shows. Bull terriers are on some BSL lists. They are a some what unpopular breed which is what helps them out in the long run stay off most. Popularity kills breeds, although they are getting there.
     
  7. btlover

    btlover Little Dog

    Maybe I'm not wording this quite right but IMO it's a fine line to breed the "spark" that we love, but breed away from dog aggression. I think pretty much everyone on this forum loves the bull breeds at least in part due to their feisty natures.
    With all the BSL and other BS (lol) around though, I would rather have a slightly calmer bt for the rest of my years, than have them banned and never be able to have another.
     
  8. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    If you breed out one trait that makes the dog the great dog that it is (speaking about the APBT here), then it becomes something else.

    The Amstaff and the Ambully are examples of two breeds formed trying to move away from the DA in the APBT. So, if one really dislikes DA, then those two breeds would be more their speed, though, even though, the Amstaff has been breed for 70 years away from DA, they can still become DA. The Ambully, obviously since only 20 years in, can definitely become DA as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2011
  9. Rogue Bullies

    Rogue Bullies Good Dog

    I have never had any real big issues with DA and I own a BT and APBT. Any of the bully breeds or any breed for that matter can be DA. I have seen some non bully breeds be worse! I think the key is making sure the dog has a good stable temperament and is socialized. Our APBT wasn't socialized for the first year we had him and he had major DA. However after taking him to training classes and out in public for socializing we don't even have a problem with it any longer.

    As for breeding for DA I would say no one is any longer unless they are actually using the dogs to fight which would be illegal. However people still love the drive, spunk and work ability bully breeds have. Dog fighting is done and over with, but that doesn't mean bully breeds are useless or shouldn't have work ability. I know someone who has a BT from a show breeder and it doesn't even like to go on walks so that just goes to show you what can be going on.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2010
  10. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    'Gameness' is not a term usually used in Bull Terriers because the way you can tell 'gameness' in a dog or BT is if the dog still is eager to fight in the pit regardless of its injuries..dog fighting is illegal, and no one here fights there bull terriers, but even more so, there are no real fighting bull terriers that I know of, as they are not really considered for the [ ]. As far as I know there are no 'game bred' bull terriers, (bull terriers with a bloodline history of fighting relatives). Some people claim you can only tell gameness in the pit, however, others may have a different out look or opinion on it, I think, you can tell gameness in other ways such as hog hunting ect, but the only way you can truly say your dog is 'game' is if he has spent 2 hours in the box, and despite his injuries and exhaustion he will still scratch.

    dog fighting is illegal, just repeating info I know.

    If someone says there bull terrier is 'game' there either talking out there ass, or they better have some info to back it up, but NOT illegal dog fighting. You can not say 'my bull terrier got into a scrap and regardless of his injuries he wanted more, hes game' this is complete BS, a 3 minute scrap with your neighbors border collie does not count. Bull terriers have a very very small, if any fighting history, there are no historical bull terrier fighters in the pedigrees of our Bull terriers, regardless of what people want to believe, bull terriers are maniacs, there hot headed sometimes and really put there all into something they do, but they are shitty fighters, that is why they are not used, they were crappy fighters back than too, thats why they used them for other stuff, and eventually the show ring, well it still make a fine sporting dog, the dog is no where near the top when it comes to being 'game' or a decent fighting dog.

    Here are some bull terriers in the past that were not used for fighting but for other things.

    [video=youtube;NzCFhXL0LVM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzCFhXL0LVM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzCFhXL0LVM[/video]

    a famous bull terrier known for being 'game' is the red hand of ulstler, a badger dog, is in that video.
     
  11. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Administrator

    Psst,A little history behind the dogs in the video!

    "Neal’s Josh bred from Pied Piper (T Lee’s Dublin Red Strain. The Dublin red
    strain being one of the oldest Irish Staffordshire strains).

    When fought defeated two APBT’s of very good breeding indeed.
    He beat moonshine easily and decisively (Pat Patrick dog) in 50 minutes when
    Moonshine wouldn’t go back for more punishment.


    Ch Stormer
    Stormer was probably one of the best English match dogs ever fought and in his day was totally untouchable. Stormer was an English Bull terrier and
    Staffordshire bull terrier battle cross (yes correct, a hybrid mongrel). Stormer's record is impressive. The only criticism that people make is that he didn't produce anything. Not surprising for a hybrid! Stormer is particularly famous for beating Ricky B's infamous champion Psycho (a great producer).

    Stormer's first outing was into an English bull terrier Stormer was around 46lb & going 17lb up hill, this wasn't regarded as a match, but Stormer won in 17
    mins. First bona fide match was against "jingles" Stormer (another dog having
    the name Stormer) at 46lb, going 7lb up hill, wins in 58 mins. Rematch "jingles"
    dies in 17 mins.

    Stormer then fights "Spock" weight wins in 2hrs 26mins. Then beat "josh" in
    1hr27mins (44lb) then beat "ch psycho" in 1hr 3mins. (43lb) Then final match
    beat "buzz" in 1 min52secs.

    Ricky B’s champion psycho.
    Psycho was Ireland's first official Ch recognized by the p.b.a. & the s.d.j. He was owned by Ricky Bernard. He won four good matches and then was famously picked up against the inter-breed battle cross Ch Stormer. The Stormer versus psycho match at the time courted the highest amount of money ever wagered on an English dogfight.

    The Scotsman is famous primarily for Champion Max. Champion Max being arguably one of the best American pit bull terriers of the British Isles and certainly the best in Scotland. The Scotsman also wrote to me about “Prince” his English bull terrier (shown above). Prince according to the Scotsman’s own words was “an Ace badger dog” and one of his favorite dogs."

    Pit Bull Chat Forum


     
  12. Not sure I would agree with that statement. Responsible breeders have been selectively breeding for temperment for many years now, but has the BT become something else as a result? Does not seem to be the case. I see examples on this board of lean, athletic BTs that are apparently very dog friendly and remain beautiful examples of the older style of the breed. If a dog had been originally bred to be DA, then maybe its not such a bad thing for the breed to change anyway?
     
  13. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    As I said above, two breeds has been formed already to try to breed out DA in APBT, and that is the Amstaff and the Ambully. Both have shown that it changes the breed a bit, and yet, even with 70 years trying to breed away from DA (the Amstaff), DA is still a very high possibility, so, it's not just as easy as "just breeding it out."

    I know nothing of the Bull Terrier, so, I can't tell you if the breed has changed or not, but structurally the BT has seemed to change a lot. I have a feeling it's because it was breed away from its true reason for being breed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2010
  14. BTs seem to be moving in the right direction, thanks to responsible breeders. Yes, it is as easy as 'just breeding out'. Just don't expect it to happen overnight. It might take another 70 years, but that doesn't mean you dont do it.
     
  15. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    I don't know about you, but DA is something I don't mind. I love my dogs the way they are. I wouldn't get a beagle and try to breed the want to sniff out of them, just as I wouldn't get a border collie and want to breed the herding instinct out of them. So, why would I get a bulldog, and try to breed the "fight" out of them? There are so many other breeds out there that people can choose from if they don't like a certain trait of a breed.

    Like I said, I don't know jack about the BT, but from what I hear they seem to have more and more health problems than anything else. So, if that is true, how is that moving in a "positive" direction?
     
  16. You dont mind DA? 'Nuff said.

    As for health problems, any reputable breeder ensures that they only breed dogs that are suitable. This includes testing for health as well as temperment. Cant stop the idiots who only breed for cash and do harm to the breed. Same problems occur with many other breeds that have just as many health problems. I guess when you can by a back yard bred puppy for $500, it makes it hard for the responsible breeders to compete with dogs costing $1000 more. That does not, in any way, detract from the good work being done by responsible breeders to, yes, move the breed in a positive direction.
     
  17. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Oh okay, like I said I don't know enough about them. I just know they are too expensive for me. lol.

    Yep, I don't mind DA, because I know it is a breed trait. Just as if I got a hound, I wouldn't mind it wanting to go after a coon. It is what it was breed for. It's what it true to its instincts. If I want to change that, why would I get that breed, when there are 100s of others to choose from?
     
  18. Like I said at the start of this thread, there are lots of things to love about the BT breed. I just do not see the benefit of DA in ANY breed - period. That's just my opinion - to each his/her own. And I am very proud of the BT breeders out there that have worked hard to take this out of the breed, while maintaining the spirit of what I think is the best breed of any dog. Thanks to them, I can have the coolest looking dog in town, and I don't have to worry about taking him to the park.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2010
  19. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    I don't really worry about taking my dog to the park, either. DA can be managed, just not trained out.

    Unless you mean a dog park, and no matter what breed I own I wouldn't bring them to a dog park. :)
     
  20. I would not own a dog that I did not feel comfortable walking off leash anywhere, whether it be the dog park or down the street. Never had a problem with my BT, my JRT, or my current terrier-mix. It takes a lot of training, but if someone is not willing to invest the time into properly training their dog, then they should get a cat :lol: (IMHO).
     

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