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Frightening new behavior NEED HELP!

Discussion in 'Bull Terrier Training' started by xchairity_casex, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. Ickle Dexter

    Ickle Dexter Little Dog

    Its been an interesting read on here!

    I think you have a lot of option to think about but I think in general the outline is for you to find a pro to deal with your problem.

    I know some peps are trying to help and they cant help unless they have seen the dog and things like that.

    I for one would use the net firstly to see if it can be resolved and not everyone can afford the pros help too.

    What stands out to me the most is that you may be doing the right things to deal but not the correct way in doing it if you know what I mean.

    Some folks on here have touched on it with regards to being calm and assertive when disciplining the dog!

    Ive seen it n Doggy programmes whereby when someone is doing doing the correct discipline but not the correct way. I have also seen it when someone has done exactly the same as I have but not in the right calm assertive way (Ceasar Milan always goes on about the calm assertive energy that you need to have ) and they dont suceed.

    I know it is hard to act in these way when things have just kicked off with your dog ! But when you do it right you might not even have to put him on his back.

    By the way when I do discipline my dog i do it in a similar way I only do these if the behaviour is severe and warrants it.

    For instance my two are always bickering at each other and fighting, you get to know the sound they make, when the normal growl turns to a proper bite and hurt each other.

    Also when they have done it they know the will get a telling off ears get pinned back, tail between the legs as soon as I approach they end up getting on their side and lying still until I allow them.

    Also there are other times when the male will not go down and tenses up and will not relax so then I will take measure to put him on his side and pin him down using the end of my fingers on his neck and hard as well. But by patient they always relax and calm down and there will be an air of calmness for a while till they forget what they have done and do the Hucklebutt around the house.

    Sorry for a long post But just remember the Calm and Assertive

    Not the Calm and aggressive!!!
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Little Dog

    My only advice would be to consult a PROFESSIONAL (very different from internet ekspurts).
     
  3. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    Let me try to answer everyone questions here and thank you everyone to your responses i appreciate everyones input.
    No Guiness is not neuterd but after this i am planning on it
    he is 4 months.

    his posture,his ears are perked forward,his tail is slightly down and just the tip wags,his head is lowerd,hackles are not raised,and he stares at me while growling. yes i will stare back at him becuase that always makes him let go of my pants and after these outbursts(when i donot touch him at all and just stand their and he lets go) he will usually try to hide with his head down,ears back and tail down

    i donot grab his collar when he gets up i loop one finger or two under it and pull just untill his front legs are off the trash can/table/peoples laps then i let go.
    he has never been left alone since ive gotten him not even left in a room by himself not by choice but just becuase theirs always someone there or i trake him with me to the store,the post office,work,ect. we will leave him in the car alone but we always take his crate and cover it so people cant look in and see him.

    i have talked to the breeder and to a his vet the breeder offerd to take him from me for a few weeks and try training and the vet said its likly his teeth making him moody he has been losing alot all of hs front teeth and 2 side ones in 2 weeks and when they fall out they each bled a good bit. he has not had an outburst in about a week now and has been very affectionante and seems quite happy but i am still worried and waiting for another outburst from him. i know he is proabbly got alot of pent up energy becuase we have been having snow storms the entire week and havent been able to take him out for walks for more then a few minutes. i am looking around also on the internet to find a behaviorlist in the area but so far no luck.:no2:
    I really do appreciate everones input and help even the critisizim your right the same things dont work for all dogs and all the input and ideas i can get help. i am still going to keep looking for a behaviorlist,still keep in touch with his breeder about this. i will let everyone know whats going on with him thanks for so much help

     
  4. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    Good luck with Guiness, I hope everything works out for the best. Hopefully you can find you a great trainer locally, that can help assist your further.
     
  5. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    Well still no growling or snarling or attacks thankfully. he seems to be doing alot better as far as listening to commands. and he seems like he is alot calmer around the house also. i feel alot better and alot more hopeful for him. although he is still nipping when he gets overly frustrated of which happens alot like when someone doesnt pet him when he is around he will start biting and ihe thinks he is going to get a treat but doesnt he will also nip at you. but i have been having alot more luck with him he is becomeing the dog i wanted playful and happy. maybe it was just his teeth but i am always going to be extra carful in new situations and always keep a VERY close watch on him. i am still looking for a behaviorilist in the area but still no luck ive tried asking at the pet shops an feed stores even as well as the vets office's and humane societys. closest ive found is in wisconsin but i cannot get to wisconsin right now as i was forced to quit my job. but i do hav another 2 lined up but not sure when ill be able to start.
     
  6. AmberABCg

    AmberABCg Puppy

    Go to APDT.com for a list of certified behaviorists or trainers in your area....At under 4 mos old, he's still testing the waters and needs lots of guidance. It sounds as though you've found a happy medium for your training right now, and just keep up the positive reinforcement! :sonn_u11:
     
  7. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    Today my nephew had a christmas party at school came home and dropped his left over snack on the floor guinness got the bag and started ripping it open i walked up to him and said in a posative voice "give" lke i have been teaching and using treats as a reward when he lets go of it. well he didnt give he snarled at me so i got a squirt bottle to squirt him with and said "NO" and sprayed him once well when i did he began attacking my pants. this is the first outburst in a few weeks but it was worse this time as he tried biting skin an not just pants and tried jumping at my face to bite while showing teeth. i took the pepermint spray and sprayed it into his mouth to make him let go and after he paced around the bag growling and snapping the air at me. also i have begun to notice that whenever he eats anything whether it be regular dog food or treats his little "man hood" comes out. also he does not get anyfood unless it come from my hands even when he gets fed i feed him by hand not holding the dish but the food stays in my hand and i take it away every few seconds make him wait then allow him to have it again. p.s tried that and there are none found not even within 50 miles of 45 miles away from here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2009
  8. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    if you kept him on the leash at all time these things would not be allowed to happen, as such a naughty puppy with no respect should not be allowed free roam. Im done sugar coating this crap, if that were my dog, I would have just taken him right then and there and gave him a good slap to the ass thats for sure. What do you think his real parents would have done in this situation? They would have bit him right back, only theres would hurt more. you got a petsmart? they offer dog training, that can get your started with the basics and can prolly be able to help with some agression issues. I had a fabulous dog trainer back in the day, she was amazing and could cure just about any problem. im prolly going to get some hell for saying that, but if my dog goes to bite me im not going to let it slide, walk away or redirect with a cookie. LOL. Zahra my pit mix growled once to me over a bone, smacked her once, startled her pretty good, she didnt yipe, and she never growled at me every again. :rolleyes:
     
  9. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    No he is not kept on lead at all times at home.from what i see of his behavior this is what i am suspecting.
    i suspect he has issues with foood (duh) becuase of his litter mates being so rough on him about it and never allowing him to safely eat food in peace i think that is why he grabs food and scarfs it down even regular dog food he always seems so desprate to eat. and what he will do all day if allowed is go searching for food if he is not playing with somebody he will get up and search for food even after he has just eaten. he will een go crazy for dog food crumbs. i know people are thinking maybe he isnt getting enough to eat but the vet. he gets fed 3 times a day 2 cups of dog food each meal and also fruits and veggies through out the day. and if he has been getting alot of extra excersize i will feed an extra half cup when he is done.
    he is a healthy weight of 32 pounds and does not have parasites (like worms) today i have started on trust training where he is put into these situations(leave a container of carrots or apples on the floor in a container) and i approach him to take it away. i donot allow him to see me put the food on the floor i just wait around untill he finds it then correct him. this will happen on a daily basis once or twice a day. but huckle i am not going to hit him as much as i feel frustrated enough to do so for the simple fact that if he is anticapating getting attacked by me that it will only make him more food obsessive and anxious and untrusting. not to mention he is very tough and stubborn when he gets around my bf mom and dads chocolate female lab he will try climbing onto her head and she will grab him and throw him down with her teeth and he just goes right back at it and gets very excited to play as though her warning is all just a game. when she clearly is gving off "stay away from me" signals if i dont step in i am sure some days shes likly to really attack him. and shes around other dogs all the time shes a really mellow laid back dog.
     
  10. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    this message will be long, but i think i have some advice.

    every one is different. I dont have any dogs trying to attack me, tho. I also have 4 dogs that do not attack eachother, they can also eat out of the same bowl or in the same room, but i dont do that because im lazy and dont like watching them all the time, lol. However I did go through these behaviors some what with my bull terrier. The first time my male ever challenged me is when I was brushing him (7 months old), I went to brush his tail and he got up and made eye contact with me and growled. Now, I sometimes may have a bit of a temper. But I was actually scared when he did this (im rarely scared of dogs after working with some horribly agressive ones for 2 years). But I knew I couldn't back down. I bought a cage muzzle and put it on him and went to brush his tail and he did what he normally wanted to do, he growled and tried to face me. i put him on his back and pointed at him and gave him a firm NO! i made direct eye contact with him. he began to shake, him shaking was his way of accepting he was not getting away with it, his shaking was his way of understanding. I brushed him every day for about 2 weeks this way, the muzzle was put on so that i could feel secure, hes never bit a soul, and hes never snapped at me, but if i felt nervous that i could get bit, i might make it happen. i can brush his tail now muzzle free. He is really sensative tho, and I pick my battles with him, but If i go at him angry and just full of bad emotions he will growl at me. the saying goes 'dont get the dog you want get the dog you need, the one thats going to help you become a better person.' its true, he helped me learn to keep myself calm and to not become overly angry, because if i came at him hostile he would react. all i have to do now is just tell him and point at him and he listens. He taught me I dont have to be so harsh in life. Its much easier with puppies, they are often easily intimidated and you never have to do to much to get the point across. cesar millan worked with an agressive dog 10 month old dog with food agression. the dog was an angel unless there was food around, than his dark side came out, it was the worst case of food agression i ever saw on the show, cesar took an extremly gentle approach to it, and it was an amazing transformation. the dogs name is cricket:

    http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/player.html?channel=39678

    my male had some weird things about his food too. he would eat super fast like he was dieng, and eventually end up throwing up or gagging. I got a 'slow down' bowl which did not work, he just knocked it over and ate everything on the ground...lol. I also fed him small amount ever few mintues he would get 1/4 of a cup. At one point I noticed he might be getting a little food possesive. I started feeding him by hand and did that for 2 weeks. every day he had to sit calmly in front of me and I fed him small handfuls at a time. making sure to let him know if i felt any teeth on my skin, since he takes food from my fingers rather grabby. I dont think a dog should really tolerate someone constantly in there food bowl touching there face. However, they must give me anything I want when I want it. Scarlett acctually stops chewing on bones and walks away when I approach her. You are probably dealing with a possesive bull terrier which is common in the breed. I think you have a wonderful chance of curing this food agression issue, and everything else will probably fall in place. teaching take it, leave it and drop it is a great place to start. they teach that at the petsmart classes as well.
     
  11. AmberABCg

    AmberABCg Puppy

    How old was he when you brought him home? Isn't he just four months old?
    Danielle is right; he needs a firm NO and this needs to stop NOW. When he begins to snarl, growl, or whatever, grab him by the scruff of the neck, and with a firm 'no', hold him down against the ground until he calms down.

    You need professional advice from someone who can observe the behavior. Please reconsider the 45 minute drive, maybe they can drive to you, or have a serious heart-to-heart with the breeder and see if the behavior continues at their home.
    He is far too young to be allowed to get away with this behavior, and if it is beyond your control, he may not be the dog for you. That advise is based on it being a controllable behavior, rather than a neurological disorder or his natural temperament.

    I wouldn't accept this from my dogs when it is directed at a person. EVER.
     
  12. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    I agree with Amber 100%. Definitly might be worth the 45 min drive to see a specialist espechially since I know you want the best for him. Or give him to your breeders so they can work with him, since they said they could work with him for a week or so, i think that might be a good idea.
     
  13. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    i took him over today o the breeder he told me he would take him back if i couldnt control him, he told me he would consider useing a shock collar
     
  14. Mollie's Nana

    Mollie's Nana Krypto Super Dog Staff Member Super Moderator

    Have you consulted a behaviorist yet? Best of luck with whatever you decide, I'm sure it's not an easy decision. :hug:
     
  15. AmberABCg

    AmberABCg Puppy

    How old is Guiness?

    I am afraid a shock collar will only escalate the behavior...
     
  16. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    while shock collars can and will work. they are not for dogs under a year of age. if you can't get a behavioralist and you cant work with him yourself, i suggest you let them try something but ask not to use a shock collar.
     
  17. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    That is also what i am afraid of. i told him i wanted Guinness to try being around his dogs first and seeing if they have any influence on teaching him respect. it didnt seem to work yesterday he went out in the yard with the other dogs including his father he tried climbing onto his fathers back and got wrestled to the ground by all 10 dogs he got a couple scratches but nothing serious. he laid in the snow a few seconds and once Guinness dad was gone he went on trying to mount all the females and getting attcked by them all over again. and the dogs were showing real signs of domanice toward him the would snap,growl and toward the end even kept there hackles raised when he bit at them. he was strutting around with his tail held high and his chest out like it was all his even when his daddy the only intact male the most dominant one in the group would jump on Guinness he wouldnt care until he was being choked by being bitten. then he would lie still untill his dad would get up off him then he went right back at him. and he is almost only 5 months! i have never ever seen a dog this dominant before in my life even his daddy is submissive toward people. the breeder told me it could have somthing to do with his getting his rabies shots at such an early age the vet i go to reccomended it when guinness had just hit 4 months. the breeder told me he never gets dogs done before 6 months becuase it can cause aggression. i had no idea does anyone eslse have ne experience of this?
     
  18. Mollie's Nana

    Mollie's Nana Krypto Super Dog Staff Member Super Moderator

    Having him neutered will end the dominance mounting. That would be first on my list of things to have done.
     
  19. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    Ive never heard of an early rabies shot causing agression-pure bs. Sounds like an old wives tail to me. He is crazy dominant the way he is acting to all the dogs-but I highly doubt he was being attacked-snarked, snapped at and put on the ground yes. He prolly needs it bad as long as it doesnt escalate. The fact that he lies there for the male for a period of time is a good sign, yea he gets up and trys again but when the male puts him down again it will have an impact. When the females are snapping at him thats good too, all that he is learning from, but probably will take more time. Tail high in the air is dominance.
     
  20. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    I gave him back to the breeder today. the breeder told me that the next time he has puppies(he is not sure when maybe a year) that he would pick out the most docileand most submissive pup in the litter and he told me he would like me to be around the whole litter from the first week on (so long as i keep away from other dogs while i am having vists with the puppies) he wants me to show leader ship over them at an early age for them to see me as a pack leader just by being there and correcting them when the reach the age or nipping and such. he assured me he wouldnt use a shock collar unless absolutly necessary he said he can get a dogs attention easily becuase he is a big guy with a deep voie. He has had exsperience with pit bulls,and amercian bull dogs also since he was 15 he said and showed me some pictures.i agreed that Guinness is excessivly dominant even more so then his stud male whom he said was also incredably dominant at a young age and would try fighting other dogs twice his size that went after him to take his food away. He made an appointment to have Guinness fixed today when i brought him over. i started crying and am still. i know this is the best thing for Guinness to be in a pack setting and have the other dogs be keeping him in check constanly somthing i cannot physically do. becuase theres so many things he does to show dominance during the day and so far my harshness and my gentleness have not fazed him. I know people dont belive me when i say i have been firm with him when he has gone to bite me i have picked him up by the neck scruff and right off the ground and shaken him (only after he tried attacking me) only to have him be even more defiant and lunge again.:no2: I feel as though this is all my fault. the breeder told me i have een doing the right things from the very beginig practicing putting my hands in his food dish,never ever allowing him to have food unless i tell him ok and he sits and is calm,never givin attention when he begs for it,never allowing him to walk ahead of me or go through doors first, teaching personal space respect never allowingh im to just clim on me or stick his face in mine unless i ask.never ever ever tolerating him to nip or bite or put his mouth on me. but no matter what i have done to punish its never fazed him. i know he will have agood life and that i am happy about i feel very sad that he wasnt right for me and even more sad that somehow i might have caused this, that the de-sensatizing and the traing obviously failed terrably.
    the breeder said if anything anything at all happens or goes wrong with another puppy (IF i get one) he told me to imedietly call him whether a growl even if im not sure hether its a play growl or not to call him and he will make sure this doesnt happen again. But i am not even sure i should try taking another puppy i am afraid i will turn it into a bad or vicious dog somehow:(
     

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