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For the Non Believers

Discussion in 'American Bully' started by GME, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. GME

    GME Little Dog

    This is for all the ppl that question the validity and purity of the RE Bloodline...


    I dnt mean to promote another site, but I just wanted to say that Dave Wilson wrote an article explaining the last 20 years of the Razors Edge dogs and talks about the purity of the bloodline and lineage directly to the APBT w/o having to add other breeds on the American Bully world Elite Edge forum... Im not sure if this is against this forums rules, just wanted to throw that out there and Defend Dave Wilsons honor and credibility..
  2. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Administrator

    Blue Bloodlines

    Razors Edge

    Razors Edge was started in MD and DC by Dave Wilson and Carlos Barksdale. They started out with game dogs. They researched everything they could find and read every book publicized at that time. The also subscribed to many dog magazines like the ADBA Gazette, even some underground ones. They called nearly every breeder that they could find and questioned them, If it said Pit, they were on it. They already owned some unpapered BYB Pits. They even had there own Pit club and went hiking and other things back in the woods. Eventually they got enough money to get some real papered, good bloodline, game dogs. They purchased some of the best around at the time. Even paid $3500 way back then for a Grandson of the great "Plumbers Alligator", mainly Mayfield lines. Dave and Carlos were very heavy into the game lines and had dogs from Hemphill to Wilder blood. These were big game dogs.
    Later on they hooked up with George Williams in DC and purchased a dog they named Diablo, from Wildside Kennels. Diablo's dad was a bigger catch dog, "Hollinsworth Bull". His mom was a game girl names "Wildsides Ms.Leaky". This was the turn around time when Razors Edge started adding more size. The first ever registered "ADBA" Razors Edge breeding was from his Mayfield boy Zeus to a Mayfield girl name Jinx. Jinx was actually given to friend back then named Curt Plater, now CLP Kennels. He owned the first ever Razors Edge dog. They would lose contact after this for many years before hooking up again. They banned Pits in PG County and Dave was forced to move. Eventually through Dave’s job in the Pet Store industry he landed a mangers job at a Pet Store in VA. He had to move to VA and still resides there as Razors Edge Kennel.

    Dave managed a Pet Store, worked as a professional dog trainer, and still bred bigger ADBA game dogs. Basically, he bred his own pits now. He also put fliers in the Washington Post explaining what the breed was and what Razors Edge was.

    Dave met a guy name Ron Smith who came aboard and took Razors Edge to another level. Dave saw this blue dog named "Steel Town Blue Monday" and was hooked! Ron already knew every UKC and AKC breeder under the sun. He had been researching on his own for years. So this man had all the pictures, info, etc…. He had fliers and pictures from every AKC and UKC breeder from Coast to coast. He literally had pictures of almost all the dogs in all these pedigrees. That man really was the "Pit Guru". He first contacted Cock 'n' Bull Kennels, the ones that produced Monday. They turned them onto people in Cali with that blood. Candace Eggart was one. Candy sent pictures of what she had and what she had going on. Just to give you a time frame, She sold a dog years later to Tony Moore named Showtime! Showtime went on to be one of the foundation bitches in the Greyline bloodline! So this was years before Greyline was even around.

    They went to every breeder on the East Coast. Up north to Bobby Morehouse, Beth Jones, a friend of his Lee Fitzgerald, Flying A's, Minot's Ledge, etc. they actually purchased a blue brindle female named "Sadey" from Minot's Ledge. This litter was had an extraordinary pedigree. The top half were mainly Flying A's dogs like "Oreo" and "Reo Speedwagon". Dogs he had seen and liked. You could see in the extended pedigree how these dogs stemmed from Ruffian dogs. Then you could see how it went back even further from the AKC Ruffian dog to the UKC Colby dogs. This top half of the pedigree actually showed how Pits eventually were registered as Staffs! Dave thought that was cool to see on paper and in a dog he owned. Then the bottom half of the ped went right back to Stratton dogs. Dogs like Going light Barney, dogs he grew up reading about! Thanks to Richard Stratton, Then behind them were the same Colby dogs he saw on the top half of the pedigree. So he had this dog that showed the history of the Am. Staff and the directions the Colby line went in the UKC. he also purchased a male named "Razors Edge Blue Maxx". His top half was a dog named "StoryTime's Upon this Rock" AKA "Peter" Peter was a dog bred by Beth Jones. He was a big dog, but kinda ugly. They bred him to "Wassuc's Farm Maggie May". Dave really liked this compact girl. He researched her lines and found she was Ryan. When they got to see the Ryan dogs they were surprised to see they were game dogs. They were AKC registered Staffs, but they still bred for game dogs! This was something Dave had never seen, I'm sure that's why the AKC people didn't like that line, . However; Dave loved it! Bully, game, blue, staffs! Now that's what I am talking about! Maxx was there boy from this blood. Now Razors Edge was big ADBA game dogs, one UKC Blue Brindle girl, and a Big hot Blue Fawn AKC boy.
    In Va there was Sharon Stone of Cloverhill, who had the biggest Staffs Dave had ever seen! Her old stuff was huge! Too tall for what he was looking for, but huge! They changed years later and went more showy. Paco, was in Dave’s opinion actually a throw back of her older days. Ginny York, Pam Perdue, GiGi, the Garretts, etc….they visited them all. Even went down to Florida and checked out Marsha Woods. Met KC Courtier of Watchdog Kennels. Eventually, went up to Md and met Kimmar Kennels. As soon as Dave stepped on the ranch, he knew he had found the build he was looking for! The Razors Edge package was almost complete.

    Razors Edge also had been advertising in the Washington Post for many years. Some young dudes from DC used to come down and hang out and bring their dogs. Edwin Salinas and Joey Nevils were two of them. These guys had been buying dogs from Kimmar and mixing their own stuff in them too. Kimmar used to have an ad in the post under the Pit Bull ads, it said "Petey pups". They didn't want their dogs to be labeled as Pits; but they advertised directly under Pits? Hmmmmmm? Not as Staff? Anyway, local people knew the deal and picked up a lot of her dogs. Joey, Edwin, Joey's pops, and their boys had a bunch of these dogs. Even some old friends of Dave’s Jerry and Gerrold had yards with these dogs. They all had game stuff in the mix. dave tapped into a lot of their dogs as well.
    In Kimmar's yard he learned a lot about breeding and genetics. Dave spent every weekend there for almost three years, and actually put on a training class for all her buyers every Sunday.

    Razors Edge had been breeding now for a few generations and even used a lot of her dogs from other people in the mix. Ron, also had some York dogs, and some other AKC stuff, they experimented with. Before they got Knuckles or any of them, Razors Edge was already in the game. Kimmar actually used there dog Maxx for some breedings. Eventually we purchased around 15 dogs from her line, including Knuckles and Rage. While these pups were growing, Razors Edge already had it's formula. They just wanted a different head. They were not given papers on some of these dogs and they had to be UKC registered instead! This is where Razors Edge became heavily involved in UKC. Dave started searching for a better head and came into some Watchdog stuff. KC was not breeding anymore, so he had to find that blood somewhere else. he bought dogs from Grapevine Kennels, and also hit up Hughzee's, who he believe later on became Chaos Kennels. They had been talking to Pam from Gaff Kennels for a few years, and really liked a boy name Seiko! So they got a dog from her. So Dave experimented with a lot of lines and different dogs. Razors Edge started having a real consistent look. The heads were big, but they still wanted them to be a little blockier. A few generations later it was pretty much there.

    So by taking combinations of dogs and bloodlines Dave eventually got to the style of pitbull he wanted, now called "Bully Style" of Pitbulls, Meaning large in size, such as a large head, wide chest, short blocky muzzles, large, but not over done bone, and a shorter back, but at the same time correct as the United Kennel Club and American Kennel Club judge by.

    Razors Edge purchased a pup from the breeding of Kimmars Catt Man Roo and Pam’s White Path China Black. These two dogs produce a few dogs in the litter that helped to promote the Razors Edge line, dogs such as: GR CH Razors Edge Throwin Knuckles, CH Razors Edge Inna Rage, and Razors Edge Sapphire Lil. Another breeding that produced one of the most famous Bitches in the history of Razors Edge was between Ch. Jackson’s GMJ Mr. Brooks and Razors Edge SilverSadey of ML which produced GR. CH. Razors Edge Sadey’s Paddington and also Kim's Blue Dekota. Dave used Ch. CloverHill’s Watuka Spirit AKA Paco and bred him to Paddington, which produced the legendary CH. Razors Edge Purple Rose of Cairo, the most famous dog of all the Razors Edge dogs today in my opinion. Razors Edge Kenna Claddaugh, Razors Edge Top Notch Chino, Razors Edge Chi Chi of Trueblue, Tonka and Jigga and Iced Mocha are also productions from this breeding.
    When the time was right the grand champion knuckles was bred to Paddington, which produced another female, named Viagra. Viagra was bred to the legend Cairo and produced one of my favorite males Razors Edge V’s Lil Ro, AKA "RO". They also produced Cai, Diva, Caira and a few more. RO lives his own legacy today in producing some beautiful dogs such as suarez bulls paco and genuine Edge's Toxic, and Titan Kennels Titan, just to name a few of my favorite males out of him. A friend of mine at Bully Loaded Kennels also has a son, Quake, and daughter, Faith, off of him that will be very nice when there older. Cairo was also bred to a few other females but I won’t name them all just ones that come to mind, some of the important ones in my eyes, such as the Cairo and Koi Breeding. Koi who is out of GR CH Knuckles and Dakota (Paddingtons sister), was bred to Cairo and produced Rage, Neela, Brooklyn, Shamrock, Rolli, Rosetta, and Diamond. Cairo was also bred to tiki and produced a male by the name of Hennessy. Cairo was also bred to my friends dog trixie of blackout kennels in VA and produced his male Gooda, Bo at Bow Wow Kennels,Denile at Razors Edge Kennel, one of my personal favorite females of Razors Edge bloodline and two others that go by Bosko and Bun. The cairo side of razorsedge is just a fraction of the bloodline. The line has been taking in different directions but everythang basically stems from the knuckles, paddington, and rage blood.
    Another well known producing dog is Razors Edge CLP's Short Shot, Short Shot is off of Buckshot and Rage, and is also a grandson to Knuckles on Buckshots side and Rage is Knuckles sister. Shortshot has done a few breedings is his life, such as Diamond, and more recently Paradise and Steel. there is also sections of the blood that are almost like a line in its own depending on what your looking for, you got the Cairo side, the shortshot side, the you got manu side, dozer daisy line breedings, which all of this basically ties into each and every dog produced from razorsedge yard in the very beginning! You just have to connect them all together. It's the facts of producing outstanding dogs from the start and putting time and effort and lots of money into building a dream.

    Razors Edge Kennel has been involved in learning, breeding, showing, training and raising the American Pitbull Terrier for well over 15 years and it keeps getting better! Razorsedge will not die! It will live on through Dave’s kids, friends, and mainly in his dogs! Razors Edge is a bloodline for everyone, it offers show quality dogs, bully correct dogs, bully dogs, and overdone dogs, overdone meaning extreme bone, head, and chest, at the same time very nice dogs, but dogs that would not be able to win in the show ring. So if you want a real pitbull where there females outdo other kennels males go to Razors Edge Kennel and they can point you in the right direction!

    Source: Blue BloodLines

    Continued in next post.
  3. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Administrator

    History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS

    In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note’s that in the late 1930’s one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren’t penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can’t stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?

    Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today’s blue dogs.

    These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch.

    The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan.

    In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s."

    Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

    If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well.
    Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".

    Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed.

    In Richard Pascoe’s book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.

    The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.

    The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.

    Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."

    Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods was a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline, that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890's. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.

    Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start!

    In 1938 Clifford built a kennel. It was the very modern kennel for that time. There was a water heating system in the kennel floor. He put hot water system himself. When Clifford spoke about his kennel, he said: "Dr. Byer ( Ormsby's veterinarian) come down and asked, "Who built this kennel, who made this kennel for you?" I said, "I did!" He said that," this is a good layout for a small kennel." The heating in the floor, that's the most economical heating too. You see, you've got to put it in right. This is six to eight inches on center, I think three quarter inch wide. I know there's about seventy elbows in it. It has two units, there was no sense in that becouse I never divided it. I always used the whole thing. I have a pressure pump. I can put it on automatically...... "

    In the beginning of Cliff & bert's Staffordshire Terrier breeding, Cliff wasn't interested in "showing" of their dogs. Alberta changed his mind though. She said, " If we're going to have dogs, I'm going to show". The first dogs they shipped to Willfred Brandon. Alberta was very interested in handling their dogs herself. And the first super champion of the X-Pert family, shown by Alberta in many dog shows was the legendary Ch. X-Pert Brindle Biff. He was the favorite dog of Clifford, Alberta & their daughter, Dorothy. When Peggy Doster asked Alberta, "What is the name of the best dog or bitch you ever bred?" Alberta said: "Biff. He was my first dog. I suppose I'm partial. You know, first show dog. I took him to shows all over the country. I showed him all over. I took him all over the place & he won all over the country. I'd go in the ring and people would say:"There goes that woman, again, with that dog"".

    Alberta was licensed to judge Stafs & Boxers. She began to judging in '40'. In 1995 Peggy Doster asked Alberta: "Why did you decide to begin judging?". Alberta said this: " It got me out to California and it got me away from cleaning up kennels at home. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to know if I would come out there and judge the dogs. They had read on their catalog that I had been out there in 1979. Wouldn't I look cute....trying to judge dogs. .....Boxers and Stafs and any breed I can quality for, but I don't want to. You know, too much for me, I don't want to get out there and get sick or something, you know."

    Alberta: " I was out in Califonia, judging, and I had Am Staff in the ring that was all chewed up in his head. I said, "This dog was in fight. That was in 49', I think. And he said: "Yes, he had a fight yesterday, they fought him." And I said "He did? He's all chewed up." I said, "Will he shakes hands with me?" He said, "Yeah, but he shakes with his hind leg." He stuck his hind leg up to me and shook hands."


    Going Light Barney and Blue Dogs by Richard F. Stratton

    Although I have been often referenced as the authority on Going Light Barney, I must confess that I never even saw Barney in holds. I found it quite fascinating, however, that he was one of the most controversial dogs of which I ever knew. I think part of the reason for that fact was Barney’s flamboyant owner, who is still alive as I write this. Although not a bad fellow, he had a way of stirring up the dander of other dog men. Consequently, all of Barney’s accomplishments were always scrutinized with a jaundiced eye. Since I had my picture taken with Barney, a lot of people seem to think that Barney once belonged to me, but such was not the case, although I did own a daughter of his which I bred back to him. That breeding produced George, one of my finest all-time dogs from a pit dog perspective.

    It is hard to believe now, but Barney was whelped way back in the sixties, so he is definitely an old timer. He was the product of breeding a daughter of Johnston’s fabulous Goofy dog to a Rascal bitch. That produced Barney’s mother, Penny, and she was nothing to write home about–possibly a cold bitch and a trifle shy. She was bred to Rootberg’s Booger, strictly on the basis of his being a pure Corvino dog. So it is not surprising that not much was expected of the litter, but it produced Barney and several females which were renowned for their gameness, one of them, Going Light Babe, winning a Best in Show down South in a losing effort!

    Barney had a storied career. He had been farmed out to some guy in the inner city to raise and was rolled from the time he was six months old, something no educated dog man would do. After he killed Two-Dollar George, a highly valued pit dog in a pick up match when he was only a little over a year old, he was reclaimed by his owner, who called himself Larry Light in the pit circuit. He was matched into fast company down in Mississippi against a Carver dog and won handily in about twenty minutes. This was the convention which also featured Boomerang and the immortal Bolio. Bolio won best in show because he won over the dog with the highest reputation, a dog which was thought to be unbeatable.

    The controversy comes from the fact that Barney was counted out in his third match in Dallas. Larry swore up and down that he was doped, as the dog didn’t know where he was, and he had lost his equilibrium for several hours. Whatever happened, Barney came back to win six in row against the best the other side could come up with. One match was raided and the dogs confiscated. This was before the felony laws, and the dogs were broken out of the pound in which they were held. The match was held, and Barney won in an hour and five minutes. Barney was dyed black and shipped to a preacher in New Mexico. Part of the reason for all of this chicanery was that Larry was suing the animal control people for losing possession of his dog!

    Barney’s toughest match was against another ear dog, extremely well thought of, and the match went nearly two hours before Barney prevailed. That was back in the oil crisis days, in which you couldn’t plan a long trip, as you might run out of fuel. Larry and his cohorts loaded up a station wagon with several gallons of gasoline so that they could make the trip there and back without having to stop or having to worry about fuel. I was invited to go along, but I was not of a mind to travel in that rolling bomb! Hence, I missed my chance to see a great match. Barney usually had an easy time with his opponents, controlling them with ear holds until the dog was worn down, and then Barney went in for the kill. I think it was the "quit" in Dallas that made it possible for Larry to go on finding matches for Barney.

    After the above mentioned match, a fellow named Jobe, who put out a pit dog magazine, did a cover story on Barney. He had been there at the match, and he dubbed Barney a "grand champion." That was the first time I had ever seen that term used. Now, he would not be eligible for the title because of the loss in his second match. Mitigating circumstances don’t count, and besides, Larry was never able to prove anything.

    Barney was known more for ability than for gameness, but he was game enough to win, and the loss came under suspicious circumstances. Barney was an unusual Bulldog in that he had an aloof personality, in direct contradistinction to most Bulldogs. He won Larry’s wife over because he would sit up and do tricks on the chain or in the kennel run, but once he was taken out, his demeanor changed completely. He had achieved his goal, so the charm was gone, and he simply was off to do what he wanted. Larry, who was a real estate speculator who owned half the land in San Diego county, loved the deviousness of the dog. He was also delighted that his wife, who abhorred the pit dog game, was Barney’s stoutest ally–although she certainly never went to a match.

    Barney was never open to stud, and he was never bred much, as Larry seemed to concentrate his breeding program on breeding dogs that were down from Penny and in breeding Barney’s sisters, in particular Babe. Larry was one of those guys who kept track of litters by naming all the pups with the same letter, but somehow one in this litter got named Scarlet. Although a fine pit dog, she escaped Larry’s ownership. Another game sister of Barney was Belle, who won several matches.

    As for blue dogs, most of them are sought out today by those who want a dog for appearance. I have even heard it said that all blue dogs stem from Staf blood. Being of a skeptical nature, I tend to doubt that "fact." One of the best dogs I ever saw was a blue dog and his brother in a Las Vegas convention. They were both talented and game, but I was never able to ascertain their breeding–but they certainly seemed to have no Staf blood in them. Besides, the Staf standard calls for a black nose, so I doubt that would be the source of the blue dogs. In truth, there are probably a multitude of sources, as it seems to be a simple Mendelian trait.

    Readers may be amused to learn that Heinzl once informed me that the last Stratton he knew was an African-American gentleman who had a strain of blue dogs. Again, he didn’t know the breeding on them, but Howard said they were as game a line as he had ever seen. And Howard was tough to please!

    People with a little experience are quick to denounce Barney and the blue dogs. I would suggest a little caution in that respect. Barney may have not been the greatest dog of his time, but he beat some really good dogs. And not all blue dogs are alike.

    Source: Blue BloodLines
  4. Mollie's Nana

    Mollie's Nana Krypto Super Dog Staff Member

    Thanks Purple, great information. :)
  5. GME

    GME Little Dog

    for real? Im the 1 that posted the site for that.... LOL
  6. Debbie

    Debbie Good Dog

    Indeed you did !! Very informational site. :)
  7. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    The thing is I don't think most of the controversy has to do with RE. Most RE dogs seem to just be APBT/Amstaff mixes, but the thing is how can one say "purity" in a line, when Amstaffs and APBT are in the blood? Or am I misunderstanding you, do you mean purity of an American Bully, proving all Dave used was Amstaff and APBT, or are you saying that RE are pure APBTs?

    If you mean purity as far as Ambullies (only using APBT/Amstaff), I believe it's all the other lines or RE dogs not off of Dave Wilson's yard that bring up the controversy.
  8. pitchik

    pitchik Good Dog

    all dogs are "mixed" in some form or another-ALL DOGS!
  9. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Yes, all dogs WERE mixed at some point, but then you start to hone in one what you want and you start to develop a breed. That is why my question to him if he meant purity as far as APBT, because if it has Amstaff mixed in then no, not pure. Or if he meant purity as in the Ambully (being only an amstaff/APBT), or I guess I should have said the Ambullies start or base being an Amstaff/APBT mix only. I believe the Ambully is still in development, so, right now, a couple different breeds might still be introduced. So, for now, at least to me, it seems, the Ambully is still a breed in development. Once they have closed their stud books to what they want, then it will be its own breed, much like how other breeds have been formed.
  10. Mollie's Nana

    Mollie's Nana Krypto Super Dog Staff Member

    That you did.. lol. Purple just made it easier to read. I couldn't click into the link you posted, but Purple got it fixed so it was on here without having to click somewhere else to read it. :)
  11. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    I forgot to add, that it seems as if Dave Wilson has closed his stud book, so, I guess as far as most other Ambully breeders, his are closest if not already purebred Ambullies, where the other lines seem to still be trying to figure things out.
  12. GME

    GME Little Dog

    So APBT and AmStaffs to me are virtually the same dog, bred for different characteristics. Daves original dogs (cant remember which ones off the top of my head) showed on paper how the APBT created the AmStaff. His AmStaffs papers went back 3 gens to show actual colby and other APBT dogs. So when we mix a APBT and an AmStaff, are we actually mixing breeds? Now, furthermore, what other ppl are doing w/ AmBullies, there are probably some ppl adding diff breeds and so forth, but ive actually tracked my females ped back to pure APBT and AmStaffs... And she is far from a UCK or ADBA gamedog (her ancestors were not far off however)


    If you go on other forums like the American Bully world forum for the elite edge, or onto Rios pitbull kingdon, you can see daves own writings about how his dogs can be traced directly to "purebred" APBTs...

    Im just playing! Im just glad the info is out there for ppl to research!

    Along w/ everything else I wrote, RE is not something Dave Developed, but the work of a lot of different ppl.. There is a foundation stock that we work off of. As to the question of purity, to me an APBT and AmStaff are the same thing... Sorry if i sound naive for feeling that way, but I know that I am not the only one that believes in this. I cant speak for other lines such as Gotti, Gangis Kon, Greyline, but an American Bully is an APBT bred for the purpose of companionship with a different look and that is all. Sorry if all of the purists dont like my outlook, but to each his own and this is how I see it.
  13. sugarbabii363

    sugarbabii363 Big Dog

    GME, not trying to be rude, but the way you see it, is completely incorrect.

    That is like saying this....

    English Bulldog(American Bully in this case)

    French Bulldog (Amstaff in this case)

    American Bulldog (APBT in this case)

    All the same breed, but were bred for different reasons... No.
  14. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Amstaffs and APBTs started as the same breed, but after 70 year (I believe that's how long its been) of breeding away from each other, they have developed into their own breeds.

    Now with the Ambully, it has been said is an Amstaff/APBT mix, and from my understand Dave has been doing this for 20 years, so, 20 years of moving away from the APBT, I'd say is definitely bringing them into their own breed.

    Plus Dave Wilson himself has said that American Bullies are not pit bulls.
  15. Zoe

    Zoe GRCH Dog

    I don't think the fact of Am Staffs, and later American Bullies, coming down from the APBT is debated, as that's pretty widely understood, but they are now separate breeds IMO in the process of growing away from the parent stock. You also have to take into account that paper hanging is more common than most people care to realize so just because a dogs paperwork says one thing, doesn't mean it's DNA doesn't say something else. ;)
  16. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Dave Wilson's words: "This is a new breed created more than 15 years ago, and it is a separate breed from the "pit bull."
    We blended different breeds together to obtain certain desired traits. The American pit bull terrier was one of the breeds whose lineage is in the background of this breed, but it is by no means the only breed behind it."-Source
  17. vdubbinya

    vdubbinya Little Dog

    amstaff is also consderined "a seperate breed from the pitbull" ......
    and with that said i mean no disrespect chj
    and i also KNOW that some of the ambully's are mixed, that's just fair game haha :D
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2010
  18. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    Not sure how it would be disrespect. lol.

    I agree, an Amstaff is not a 'pit bull'.
  19. vdubbinya

    vdubbinya Little Dog

    just makign sure u took it the right way and not the wrong way :D i hate typing on these forums cuz most ppl take u the wrong way 90% of the time. :D
  20. GME

    GME Little Dog

    I dnt see how wat I sed has to do with any of the aforementioned breeds. We are talking about the relationship between the APBT, AmStaff, and AmBully wich are related by looks as well... I see wat you are getting at, but it is totally off topic from what I am saying.

    I am not saying they are pitbulls, they derive from pitbulls. And I have tracked down my dogs lineage all the way back to the show APBT and AmStaffs... Yes the APBT and AmStaff have been drifting away from each other for a long time, but in that time they still were using both styles of dogs on both sides of the spectrum.

    I know there is paperhanging, I will not dispute that, but for most ppl here, i think they want to believe that all bully breeders practice this and that we are all corrupted individuals. I am a purist when it come to these dogs, and I choose to utilize dogs that come from stock that is not questioned in terms of ethical breeding practices.

    He also states that the only dogs he has utilized in creating these dogs were APBT and AmStaffs... This news article totally stretched what Dave said to make it seem like he meant something else, which he has since cleared up.

    Key word, Some...

    Hence American Bully.... All from the same origination, and in my case, without the use of other breeds.

    ---------- Post added at 02:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 AM ----------

    Let me get something off of my chest. These Bullies are not APBT in terms of gamedogs or UKC show APBTs. They are not AmStaffs. The AmStaff is a different representation of the APBT, by utilizing the APBT it branched off and decided to breed for a certain type and look. The American Bully has chosen to use certain strains of the APBT and AmStaff to create this new breed. They are not APBT, they are American Bullies and that is what i call my dogs. There is paperhanging and unethical breeding in all breeds of dog including all of your beloved "Pure APBTs" We are not here to argue, we are here to create our style of dog. IDK how the idea came along that i was trying to call the English, French and American bulldog even relates because they are not even of the same type of dog, but if you think thats what im getting at you are sadly mistaken. This is a breed I love and I simply want it to get the respect it deserves. Im tired of ppl thinking the breed as a whole is all a bunch of mixed breed mutts and fat curs. We are in a new era, I hope you take the time to actually take the time to fully research this breed before you jump to conclusions, and make false accusations and assumptions. We have been around for 20 years, and we will be here for another. Get used to us!

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