Fitness in relation to health

[Kai]

I was reading another debate within this forum about what is a healthier physique. I was wondering what everyone here knew about BCS and its relationship to canine health and longevity (no google cheating, just share what you know).

 

[Dray]

I was reading another debate within this forum about what is a healthier physique. I was wondering what everyone here knew about BCS and its relationship to canine health and longevity (no google cheating, just share what you know).

I have to be honest:no2: I know nothing but i would be interested to hear mr.clueless' comments

 

[mr.clueless]

I was reading another debate within this forum about what is a healthier physique. I was wondering what everyone here knew about BCS and its relationship to canine health and longevity (no google cheating, just share what you know).

my guess is you are in usa....bcs is something that is yet to make its way over hear although i have friends in america who have spoken about it so i know a little.
i dont really think its a good idea for the simple reason that what one person sees as fit....another person with no interest in fitness will see as skinny.....likewise what one person sees as fat.....the person with no interest in fitness will see as fine.
its peoples attitudes that need to be changed not fancy scoring systems.....but i guess its a start and anything to promote health and fitness in dogs has to be a good thing.

the hard fact that people with such dogs will ignore.....is that most dogs are overweight....some are even bred this way to be heavier and heavier throughout the generations hence we end up with the state some breeds are in today......but its all down to attitudes and they are much harder to change than dogs !

 

[Kai]

Yes, I am in the US, but more importantly, I am attending a college of veterinary medicine.
The Body Condition Scoring system was founded in the US, Texas more specifically, in 1983 to standardize the physical evaluation of the body condition of animals (livestock as well as pet) during routine physical examinations. This does not mean that it is solely used or bound to this continent, as most CVM around the world now (even in the UK, where it has been readily used since 1996) teach it and veterinary professionals use it on a regular basis. It helps set a standard of condition, which can be communicated easily with a scale understanding between both parties as opposed to, "Fido is fat," similar to saying "Roger is 6'1" instead of "Roger is tall." The idea is to decrease personal opinion, not increase it.
It is a fact that the majority of pets today are like ourselves; overweight. This causes similar health issues as well as progressed aging. There was a long term study done based on lean fed dogs (split litters) versus well fed dogs. Over the life span of the dogs, several detriments were noted in the well fed dogs. The difference between the two test groups was not extreme only a 4/9 and a 6/9. Here is an excerpt from the study:

48, 8week old Labrador Retrievers from 7 litters were randomly assigned to control (fed appropriate level for their breed, size, and age) or restricted (lean fed, 25% less food than the control dogs) groups. All dogs were fed the same nutritionally complete diet from 8 weeks of age until death. The dogs were evaluated annually for ideal body condition. Lean body mass, bone mass, and glucose, insulin, cholesterol, and triglyceride levels also were measured as assessments of health.... Lean fed Labrador retrievers had a median life span of 15% (1.8 years) longer than the control dogs... Lean fed dogs exhibited fewer visible signs associated with aging, such as graying muzzles, than did control dogs...The median age at which the dogs required treatment for osteoarthritis, the most common chronic disease observed in this study, was 13.3 years for lean fed dogs, compared to 10.3 years for the control dogs.... The age at which 50% of the dogs required treatment for a chronic condition was 12.0 years for lean fed dogs, compared to 9.9 years of age for control dogs.

As noted, skinny is better than plump, regardless of exercise.

Here is a link to a brief description of a Body Condition Scoring chart. the 9 point chart is the most universal. A 5 and a 6 point are also used.
Understanding Your Dog's Body Condition | Purina.com
Body Condition Score Chart
Ideal:Ribs, lumbar vertebrae, pelvic bones and other bony structures easily palpable with slight fat cover. Tail base smooth with thin, soft tissue cover. Concave abdominal tuck. Smooth hourglass shape to waist.
Now related to a dog with a very slight coat, these palpable structures can be seen. Also, in a top conditioned animal, as in a human, the extremity of this condition is noted, such as in a greyhound, or a top level Schutzhund or k9 dog (granted the thicker coat of a GSD or Malinois will decieve the eye), though still considered healthy.

People often comment on how thin my dogs are. I have an 8 year old Rott who is kept thin. She has two bad knees, yet she can keep up with every dog in the house. She also has had no signs of slowing down or even greying of the muzzle. Personally, I will gladly enjoy another 2 years happy and healthy with my Rotty girl.
:cool:

 

[Dray]

Yes, I am in the US, but more importantly, I am attending a college of veterinary medicine.
The Body Condition Scoring system was founded in the US, Texas more specifically, in 1983 to standardize the physical evaluation of the body condition of animals (livestock as well as pet) during routine physical examinations. This does not mean that it is solely used or bound to this continent, as most CVM around the world now (even in the UK, where it has been readily used since 1996) teach it and veterinary professionals use it on a regular basis. It helps set a standard of condition, which can be communicated easily with a scale understanding between both parties as opposed to, "Fido is fat," similar to saying "Roger is 6'1" instead of "Roger is tall." The idea is to decrease personal opinion, not increase it.
It is a fact that the majority of pets today are like ourselves; overweight. This causes similar health issues as well as progressed aging. There was a long term study done based on lean fed dogs (split litters) versus well fed dogs. Over the life span of the dogs, several detriments were noted in the well fed dogs. The difference between the two test groups was not extreme only a 4/9 and a 6/9. Here is an excerpt from the study:


As noted, skinny is better than plump, regardless of exercise.

Here is a link to a brief description of a Body Condition Scoring chart. the 9 point chart is the most universal. A 5 and a 6 point are also used.
Understanding Your Dog's Body Condition | Purina.com
Body Condition Score Chart
Ideal:Ribs, lumbar vertebrae, pelvic bones and other bony structures easily palpable with slight fat cover. Tail base smooth with thin, soft tissue cover. Concave abdominal tuck. Smooth hourglass shape to waist.
Now related to a dog with a very slight coat, these palpable structures can be seen. Also, in a top conditioned animal, as in a human, the extremity of this condition is noted, such as in a greyhound, or a top level Schutzhund or k9 dog (granted the thicker coat of a GSD or Malinois will decieve the eye), though still considered healthy.

People often comment on how thin my dogs are. I have an 8 year old Rott who is kept thin. She has two bad knees, yet she can keep up with every dog in the house. She also has had no signs of slowing down or even greying of the muzzle. Personally, I will gladly enjoy another 2 years happy and healthy with my Rotty girl.
:cool:

My friends Rotty is about 9 stonne, is that overweight ???

My first Bull Terrier is 13 years old and still going strong today. :sonn_u11:

 

[Kai]

Dray,
It would depend on the dog's frame and how lean it is. Too many people are obsessed with how big (as in heavy) their dog is and don't mind their actual frame. I hear an owner boast of a 120 pound (9 stone)Lab, only to see the dog and find out it is very obese.
I'm glad your bully is still with you.

 

[Dray]

Dray,
It would depend on the dog's frame and how lean it is. Too many people are obsessed with how big (as in heavy) their dog is and don't mind their actual frame. I hear an owner boast of a 120 pound (9 stone)Lab, only to see the dog and find out it is very obese.
I'm glad your bully is still with you.

I was only saying as the Rotty in question is fourteen years of age and still active. I think he is a stocky dog which i think you would say was over weight

What happens when these athletic dogs are too old for training, do they ballon just like human athletes and then suffer from the excessive change :confused:

Maybe we should let sleeping dogs lie and leave people to make up their own mind and that also means people like me who believe that excessive training where weights are concerned can be harmful later on in the dogs life. I have no evidence to back this up and just because i do not agree with or fully understand people's reasons... It is not up to me what they choose to do with their dogs:sonn_u11:

 

[mr.clueless]

for somebody who claims to have been an athlete your knowledge on physical fitness actually amazes me :eek:.....

before, you said you was late 30,s ? so clearly your best athletic/sporting days are behind you......tell me,have you ballooned up in weight and lost any ambition or desire to maintain a decent level of health and fitness ?

why does a dog too old for hard exercise have to be fat ?.....do you not understand fats carbs and proteins ? believe it or not we live in an age where we dont have to prepare our dogs food we can simply buy it dry in a bag......they even sell it for " young dogs " " old dogs " " active dogs " " low activity dogs " and you guessed it the food is adjusted accordingly !

when a dog is too old for hard fitness his feedpan and exercise is adjusted accordingly.....just the same as humans,its not rocket science !

i cannot believe that people are actually against the idea of fitness and want to discourage it .....what has the world come to :no2:

 

[Dray]

for somebody who claims to have been an athlete your knowledge on physical fitness actually amazes me :eek:.....

before, you said you was late 30,s ? so clearly your best athletic/sporting days are behind you......tell me,have you ballooned up in weight and lost any ambition or desire to maintain a decent level of health and fitness ?

why does a dog too old for hard exercise have to be fat ?.....do you not understand fats carbs and proteins ? believe it or not we live in an age where we dont have to prepare our dogs food we can simply buy it dry in a bag......they even sell it for " young dogs " " old dogs " " active dogs " " low activity dogs " and you guessed it the food is adjusted accordingly !

when a dog is too old for hard fitness his feedpan and exercise is adjusted accordingly.....just the same as humans,its not rocket science !

i cannot believe that people are actually against the idea of fitness and want to discourage it .....what has the world come to :no2:

You read what isn't there my friend.
How many proffesional footballers end there career and put on excessive weight ?
How many people who do not excercise but have decent bodies, get into their late 30's and then spread ?
Is it not down to metabolism ?
I play 5-a-side once a week and veterans 11-a-side once a week. When i was in my 20,s i played 5-a-side twice a week, 11-a-side twice a week and also night games as and when, plus i also trained for both teams twice a week. As i got older i had to play less as my body could not take it. I will possibly need two new knees and two new ankles in the next 5 years but i still do as much as i can. However i have put on about half a stone over the last 5 years as i have excersied less, not through choice

Is there any evidence that suggests that weight pulling dogs suffer from joint and back problems as they get older or not ?

 

[Patch O' Pits]

Understanding Your Dog's Body Condition | Purina.com

That is the chart I always refer people too when they ask about weight.

As for older athletes whether they be dogs or humans getting at, well that is a matter of the combo of genetics, diet, and exercise for some with others it may also be injury or sometimes illness preventing the lack of physical activity. Also don't forget a lot really falls on the owners who often get plain old lazy themselves IMO and blame things on" oh the dog is old" or "it is because the dog is spay/neutered" etc.

 

[mr.clueless]

You read what isn't there my friend.
How many proffesional footballers end there career and put on excessive weight ?
How many people who do not excercise but have decent bodies, get into their late 30's and then spread ?
Is it not down to metabolism ?
I play 5-a-side once a week and veterans 11-a-side once a week. When i was in my 20,s i played 5-a-side twice a week, 11-a-side twice a week and also night games as and when, plus i also trained for both teams twice a week. As i got older i had to play less as my body could not take it. I will possibly need two new knees and two new ankles in the next 5 years but i still do as much as i can. However i have put on about half a stone over the last 5 years as i have excersied less, not through choice

Is there any evidence that suggests that weight pulling dogs suffer from joint and back problems as they get older or not ?

so by your own admission you are a fool ???
you are so against physical fitness yet are clearly saying you have had a lifetime of it ?

there is a big difference between metabolism changes and a lack of discipline !
has it ever crossed your mind that a retired athlete changes diet,exercise,sleep patterns.....so yes naturally this will result in certain physical changes.....but it is still no excuse for getting fat !!

ok some of us take fitness to what some would consider obssessive levels for instance at this moment i am in the off season carrying around 13 % bodyfat...if its not nailed down im eating it !....come march i will be around 8 % bf and pre competition down as low as 2%.....this is not healthy living as 2 % is relatively dangerous even if only for a short time so i understand the bodily changes in relation to diet and exercise and realise its not for everyone....but what i will never understand is athletes or people in general who have no desire to better themself whether it be fitness or any other walk of life......why allow yourself to become fat just because you dont compete in sports anymore...thats just simply lack of self discipline.

and it go,s for dogs as well...only dogs rely on us as they cannot feed or exercise themself.....so of course what chance do they have when folk have attitudes like yours !

as for weight pulling dogs.......no there is absolutely no proof that it effects dogs in any adverse way whatsoever.

look...if you have the attitudes you have concerning dogs and fitness then have them but i think you are wrong to try to discourage others from keeping fit healthy dogs

 

[Dray]

so by your own admission you are a fool ???
you are so against physical fitness yet are clearly saying you have had a lifetime of it ?

there is a big difference between metabolism changes and a lack of discipline !
has it ever crossed your mind that a retired athlete changes diet,exercise,sleep patterns.....so yes naturally this will result in certain physical changes.....but it is still no excuse for getting fat !!

ok some of us take fitness to what some would consider obssessive levels for instance at this moment i am in the off season carrying around 13 % bodyfat...if its not nailed down im eating it !....come march i will be around 8 % bf and pre competition down as low as 2%.....this is not healthy living as 2 % is relatively dangerous even if only for a short time so i understand the bodily changes in relation to diet and exercise and realise its not for everyone....but what i will never understand is athletes or people in general who have no desire to better themself whether it be fitness or any other walk of life......why allow yourself to become fat just because you dont compete in sports anymore...thats just simply lack of self discipline.

and it go,s for dogs as well...only dogs rely on us as they cannot feed or exercise themself.....so of course what chance do they have when folk have attitudes like yours !

as for weight pulling dogs.......no there is absolutely no proof that it effects dogs in any adverse way whatsoever.

look...if you have the attitudes you have concerning dogs and fitness then have them but i think you are wrong to try to discourage others from keeping fit healthy dogs

Thank you for the fool comment:cool:
Why am i so against physical fitness, i may be slightly against some of the ways some people go about obtaining that fitness ?
I have never tried to discourage people from excercising their dogs ??? Why would i do that ??? All dogs need excercise, what form of excercise and to what extreme is then down to personal taste

I do believe you are top end of the scale where physical fitness is concerned but i also think you know i don't wish for everyone to become couch potatoe's either

Now i have to go play 5-a-side and i will wear my bin bag so i sweat even more, just for you:lol:

 

[mr.clueless]

bin bags under the clothing went out with the rocky films !.....my guess is you need to seek a little nutritional knowledge......but hey like i said not everyone seeks to reach their physical peak so do as you see fit....
BUT i repeat...dogs dont make decisions they have decisions made for them......by us !
now im sure if a dog could talk he would say " dray keep me fit and healthy however you know how "....and not " dray sit me on the couch eating sweets and crisps and walk me round the block once a day "

by nature bull terriers are not lazy animals....but will become that way if not encouraged to exercise.....

ok you dislike certain methods of exercise....then find others ! dont just allow a dog to get out of shape because you dislike weighpull or jumping........stone me throw a ball up and down a steep hill,go for a bike ride with your dog running alongside....even run with your dog...anything that gets and keeps a dog in decent shape ( he can still be a loving cute pet dont worry )....
these excuses people make for not wanting fit healthy dogs is totally backward of what everyone should strive for in life.....improvement !

ps. my apologies i didnt mean to call you a fool i have resisted the temptation to do that......i simply meant you must feel a fool discouraging fitness and then saying you have been an athlete.....kind of hypocritical but hey its the name of the game in showing circles i guess

 

[Dray]

bin bags under the clothing went out with the rocky films !.....my guess is you need to seek a little nutritional knowledge......but hey like i said not everyone seeks to reach their physical peak so do as you see fit....
BUT i repeat...dogs dont make decisions they have decisions made for them......by us !
now im sure if a dog could talk he would say " dray keep me fit and healthy however you know how "....and not " dray sit me on the couch eating sweets and crisps and walk me round the block once a day "

by nature bull terriers are not lazy animals....but will become that way if not encouraged to exercise.....

ok you dislike certain methods of exercise....then find others ! dont just allow a dog to get out of shape because you dislike weighpull or jumping........stone me throw a ball up and down a steep hill,go for a bike ride with your dog running alongside....even run with your dog...anything that gets and keeps a dog in decent shape ( he can still be a loving cute pet dont worry )....
these excuses people make for not wanting fit healthy dogs is totally backward of what everyone should strive for in life.....improvement !

ps. my apologies i didnt mean to call you a fool i have resisted the temptation to do that......i simply meant you must feel a fool discouraging fitness and then saying you have been an athlete.....kind of hypocritical but hey its the name of the game in showing circles i guess

Talking off fools:lol:

When have you asked me how much excercise and by what form me and my dogs have ???
I go for a 4 mile jog with 4 of them at once twice daily and the other 2 go for a 3 mile walk also together and also twice daily. They also go for a wander up the road just before bed time.
I get up at 5.30 every morning and take all my dogs before i go to work and i have to be at work at 8.00a.m.
We also have a running machine as two of our Bullies hate the rain, the others aren't much for it but if we are already out then they will just jog a little faster:lol:

Where on earth did you ever read that i do not agree with excercising my dogs:confused:
Maybe you have just convinced yourself that because i do not agree with certain methods of training that that meant i just did not walk them:confused:

Being called a fool from a fool really makes me feel foolish:lol:

Take it easy and be sure to keep this forum on it's toes while i'm away on vacation:sonn_u11:

Dray

 

[mr.clueless]

what makes me a fool please explain ? the fact i detest the way this breed has been destroyed or the fact i like fit and healthy animals ?

or maybe you see me as a fool because i tell the truth !

if im not mistaken you have a website of your dogs,having taken a quick peak although your dogs are not the worst i have ever seen they are certainly overweight and terribly exaggerated dogs......

your understanding of physical fitness leaves me simply shaking my head in disbelief !..... the fact that your dogs have a few miles walk a day means they are fit ?.....i could walk 20 miles a day it doesntmean im fit !....are you aware that for physical fitness to improve the pulse and heartbeat needs to be raised.......and you seem to know nothing about healthy nutrition whatsoever
so have i got this right you walk/run 14 miles per day ....hmmm....again,shaking my head in disbelief
if you have taken dogs to the level of fitness i have for myself and others you get to have an eye for the level of fitness a dog has simply by looking at them !.....and without being disrespectful your dogs show a very low level of fitness be that at the fault of the exercise or the feedpan.
I have just learned how to post pictures and posted a few in the thread " gamedog image " in the section " photography artwork and videos ".....have a peak and notice the difference between fit dogs and fat dogs,and just out of interest neither of these dogs had 8 miles per day walking :no2:

and yes you have discouraged people from exercising dogs...you know nothing about dog exercise apart from your daily jaunts yet tell people who have their own fitness methods they are wrong !

 

[Dray]

what makes me a fool please explain ? the fact i detest the way this breed has been destroyed or the fact i like fit and healthy animals ?
Unless i can go back in time ??? I breed with the Bull Terriers of today, not all your yesterday's

or maybe you see me as a fool because i tell the truth !
I admire you for speaking your mind. I find you difficult at times for not allowing others to have an opinion, that differs from your own:p

if im not mistaken you have a website of your dogs,having taken a quick peak although your dogs are not the worst i have ever seen they are certainly overweight and terribly exaggerated dogs......
Again your opinion

your understanding of physical fitness leaves me simply shaking my head in disbelief !..... the fact that your dogs have a few miles walk a day means they are fit ?.....i could walk 20 miles a day it doesntmean im fit !....are you aware that for physical fitness to improve the pulse and heartbeat needs to be raised.......and you seem to know nothing about healthy nutrition whatsoever
so have i got this right you walk/run 14 miles perday ....hmmm....again,shaking my head in disbelief. If you have not spoken it, then it has to be an untruth:confused::no2:
if you have taken dogs to the level of fitness i have for myself and others you get to have an eye for the level of fitness a dog has simply by looking at them !.....and without being disrespectful your dogs show a very low level of fitness be that at the fault of the exercise or the feedpan.
I have just learned how to post pictures and posted a few in the thread " gamedog image " in the section " photography artwork and videos ".....have a peak and notice the difference between fit dogs and fat dogs,and just out of interest neither of these dogs had 8 miles per day walking :no2:
You like Ambra's physique and i think she looks to skinny. I did not say Ambra is skinny! I am also not saying that Ambra isn't a super fit dog, because i obviously would not know one if it bit me in the ASS:lol:
Why can you not seem to grasp, that i am not you, i will never be you, or will i ever see in a Bull Terrier the same as what you see.......

and yes you have discouraged people from exercising dogs...you know nothing about dog exercise apart from your daily jaunts yet tell people who have their own fitness methods they are wrong !

I think i may have said that in my opinion Bull Terriers were not designed to pull huge heavy weights and over time i feel that this can only end in severe pain for the dog. However if someone with a great deal more experience in the weight pulling with Bull Terrier field were to tell me that i was way off the mark, i would listen or read what they had to say and maybe become more educated
Being told that my beliefs are wrong, without proper explanation, will never make me change my mind, just because you say i should:no2:


I am an honest person and in my opinion two of my Bullies could do with loosing a few more pounds, they do not eat a great deal but have lots of my so called exercise. So mr.clueless what should i be feeding them on ?????
Please don't tell me steroids:lol:

Dray:sonn_u11:

 

[mr.clueless]

there is a big difference in personal opinion and facts.....this all go,s back to my original questions that defenders of these disgusting breeding principals cannot answer...it seems to me you defend the way this breed has been changed over the years.....yet on the other hand say you cannot be held responsible for what others before you did. !! is that hypocritical or just double dutch !!

surely as a so called responsible breeder and defender of this breed you should be doing all you can to breed away from the terrible exaggerations brought about over the last 30 years ?

if your personal opinion is that fat looks better than fit,then ok thats your opinion and your entitled to that.

but if your opinion is that these changes have been for the good of the breed then im sorry thats not personal opinion thats just plain wrong.....when a dog breed suffers due to changes then facts take over from opinion.....besides which......if " your opinion " means so much then why have you avoided my question from day 1 ? maybe it suits you to avoid it because theres not really an answer is there,its easier just to blame others :rolleyes:......but by breeding the same way they did surely that says you do not condone it !
until you can answer what is a totally obvious and straightforward question regarding a massive talking point of this breed then your " opinion " really has no value as you clearly wish to brush under the carpet a major controversy within this breed.
the ridiculous comical exaggerations over the last 30/40 years in the bull terrier breed were not done for the dogs benefit but for human fashion...the dogs have suffered through this.............are these facts or my opinion ? have i spoken the truth or lied ?

maybe you should continue to brush it under the carpet,or plain ignore it......after all as the saying says.....the truth often offends !

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------

feed your dogs what you like it makes no odds to me....im not out to save the world but i will refuse to sit back while people discourage others to seek the best for their dogs,especially when its coming from somebody who promotes deformities and poor health and fitness in a breed of dog close to my heart.
if you dont know how or what to feed a dog to lose a few pounds then maybe you need to do some research on nutrition.......and coming from someone who claims to be a footballer....its little wonder our national team performs so poorly is it

 

[Laced Wit Game]

i have a question? why does everyone on here feel like they need to argue? this thread/site is to post topics/questions and get everybodys input for further information. yelling.....or excuse me.....TYPING LOUD gets nobody anywhere. lets say you win the argument......now what?....do any of you guys really feel better at the end of the day??.....if you want to argue and yell you should get married. people are on here to learn and conversate. now im not saying that debating isnt ok but why the name calling? whats the point? honestly i could care less what names somebody is calling me from the other side of the world...everybody has there own opinion and to be honest whether theyre right or wrong really doesnt matter cuz arguing and calling them stupid isnt going to change theyre mind, the truth is 95% of the people who post a thread leave the thread thinking the same thing they did when they posted it because everybody thinks THEY are right.....so what im getting at is it is pointless to argue because the 1 ur arguing with isnt going to change theyre mind, would it change yours?

 

[mr.clueless]

why do people think that a sensible honest debate is an argument ?....i cant see any name calling....
i am a grand father im way past the stage in life of childish arguments.....
but that doesnt mean im going to stand back and say nothing on subjects of great interest to me,this is a bull terrier forum is it not ? is this not a stage to air views on bull terriers ? or is it merely a place to stroke peoples ego,s and tell them what cute lovely dogs they have from a picture !!
if there are very controversial subjects within a breed of dog why ignore them ? why not talk about them....thats not winning or losing.
some people are blind to the truth....if you can open their eyes and it benefits a breed of dogs surely thats a good thing......if they continue to keep their eyes closed then so be it...but whats so terrible about a harmless discussion on the internet ?......if it bothers you that much....dont read it...its simple really.

 

[asgisga]

I have a apbt pup and a Bassett Hound and the breed standard for a bassett is considerd very obese for my dog. So, in my opinion, like with people, it depends on the size of the dog itself. What I mean by size is the frame structure of the dog. All though my hound has a large frame, he still would be obese due to an injury to his front leg. Weight of any animal pet or farm would depend on a lot of factors just as it does in the human species. I go by what the veterinarian says since they are the ones who payed all that money to go to school to learn to take care of all kinds of animals when it comes to the weight of my dogs and their over all well being