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Finding a Professional and Reputable Bull Terrier Breeder

Discussion in 'Bull Terrier' started by Bullies of NC, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    WOW!! Hahahahaha.

    ---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------

    "I have no doubt the you run a top notch breeding operation and have wonderful accommodations after all it is your livelihood."

    my computer corrects your spelling...


    ---------- Post added at 12:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 AM ----------

    Are you suggesting NC bullies lives off the breedings they do?
     
  2. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    What do you think Danielle?

    Welcome to "Bullies of NC." Located in both Richlands and Jacksonville, North Carolina, we are the Bull Terrier breeders of the state. Unlike other breeders, this is NOT a hobby or side job to collect money for breeding Bull Terriers. We are devoted full time with total dedication towards the development of healthy, top-quality AKC Bull Terriers. Our love for the Bull Terrier breed has turned into a full time commitment that encompasses two separate breeders who have merged into one to offer the BEST possible Bull Terriers in the country.

    ---------- Post added at 01:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 AM ----------

    Actually not to tired as my post #38 is gone. In it I highlighted those statements of yours I did not agree with and gave my reason why, along with what I thought was the correct information.
    Will have to give it another try.
     
  3. Bulfull – Give this thread a rest. You’re only embarrassing yourself as you continue to throw darts. You’re not that dumb to think my major source of income comes from breeding Bull Terriers. Both myself and partner Craig are retired Marines and disabled veterans. We both have other employment. However, our wives have chosen to remain at home and provide constant care and attention for the dogs. We’re a team of four and we share a lot of responsibilities. We’ve been doing well for many years and have never had a problem with any Bull Terrier enthusiast before. You’re the first.
    I understand you put forth as much energy as possible to turn the original subject of the thread off course. You may even feel as though you succeeded and have your fingers crossed the moderator will delete the entire post in due time. One thing is for sure though – many read my original post, many eyes were opened, and everyone viewed your unwarranted slander. I could have gone deep into the legalities of breeders collecting money for puppies without a business license or tax identification number. If you don’t know what I’m talking about call your state or the BBB. I bring to the table an authentic point that many wish to ignore because they would rather turn a blind eye to others conducting illegal sales of puppies and stud service. Try this; entertain your fan crowd by providing them with a business license or tax ID number from any of your breeder friends on your golden list. If you want mine look up Bullies of NC, LLC. I pay my taxes and I conduct things like an honest citizen would. I doubt you’ll be able to provide 3 names (if any) and in the event you can’t then at least explain to others looking for a reputable breeder that the ones you know are either giving their puppies away for free or their corrupt people stealing from Uncle Sam.
    Feel free to PM me or email me with any further slander you may condor up and save yourself from further embarrassment. Just let this thread ride without turning it around.
     
  4. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    I lol'd when i read "corrupt people stealing from uncle sam" that's all...
     
  5. Try and contain yourself from lol and put this thought together:

    What does the average price for a good Bull Terrier cost? Let's say $1500 as a ballpark figure. What if a breeder had a big litter of 10 puppies. Would it be ok to ignore claiming $15000 on the "SALE" of the puppies? What if the same breeder had 2 litters that year? Nothing wrong with putting $30,000 in your pocket. Heck after taxes I'm not sure if teachers are making that annually. But atleast they're earning their money LEGALLY. Now you have me lol. I'd never buy a dog from a pet store but maybe we need to tell pet stores to stop charging taxes and filing their profits on pets because they don't have to since some breeders don't.
     
  6. Azelgin

    Azelgin Puppy

    Do you really want to go down this road?
    Sure, there is the cost of the breeding stock. But as any small business owner knows, ALL expenses involved in the operation of a business become expenses deductable against net income. Lets say I decided to call my "backyard" breeding operation a legitimate business venture and file self employment taxes on the resulting income. First, there will be the cost of the breeding stock. Now, I'm not sure if the whole purchase price will be a deduction against the first years income, or, if it must be depreciated out for the lifespan of the dog. Most my experience with these matters relates to large and small equipment. Some of which are 100% the first year, others which are given a usefull lifespan of X years for depreciation purposes. I do know that if I sell the dog before it dies, I'll have to reclaim the depreciation on the years taxes in which the sale took place. OK, now that I have my breeding stock, all feeding, vet bills, and housing expenses become deductions against any income. How about collars, cages, backyard fencing, kennel construction and other ancilliaries. Same with my internet connection, cell phone, landline and portion of my home used as an office for my BYB. Any show travel expenses will also become write offs, as they are part of the expenses of advertising and promoting my BYB. Lodgeing, show entrance fees, meals and the cost of entertaining prospective clients. Gosh, I need a brand new pickup, to use for show travel. I can either take the standard milage deduction, or, long term depreciation. The list goes on and on until I either break even, or, show a loss. Can't show a loss every year, Uncle Sam doesn't like that. I'm sure that you are paying as little taxes as possible, if any, on your "legitimate" breeding operation. If not, you need a new accountant. Complaining about the people that are really into the care and breeding of QUALITY Bull Terriers not paying taxes is a pretty lame excuse to put your operation on a pedistal above the others.

    As you said in your original post "these are only my OPINIONS".

    ---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

    Pardon me, I meant "gross income".

    ---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------

    I have no idea why this posted twice. At least it didn't disapear.

    ---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

    Here's another helpful hint: Your health insurance premiums for you and your spouse, if you don't have any from other employment, may become fully deductable as a cost of your self employed business.
     
  7. Actually I never brought up my kennel. It’s been the other posts that made reference to my kennel and since then have been trying their best to dig hard for fault. However, you’re absolutely correct in summing up some of your expenses that will have to be recorded and it’s not about how much I pay on taxes. The concern isn’t the amount paid out, especially for 1 or 2 litters per year. The concern is doing so legally and doing precisely what you mentioned in your post. That’s where the “Professional Breeder†part of my post comes into perspective. However, you may not get away with all the expenses you mentioned in regard to travel and show if it’s not directly related to the sale of your puppies. Showing the dogs would be considered a hobby and not a necessity for the business aspect of breeding. The depreciation of a dog as you mentioned would only come into play if it were a dog you paid for vice retained from your own bloodline. When you mentioned about having an array of deductions based on all your investments you are once again correct. There won’t be much of a profit but breeding appropriately isn’t going to be a highly profitable or financially rewarding job. However, this does not mean you get to neglect claiming what you “SOLD†and what you intend to sell more of. Due to the fact you have knowledge on business then it should be no secret to you that no matter what you’re selling whether it be a puppies, food, or construction equipment profits have to be claimed. You know this, so why make attempts to turn a blind eye to it. The mere fact that there’s been retaliation on me and my kennel is because some of you are trying your best to protect those who you know as breeders who aren’t legally “SELLING†their puppies. That’s a fact and it’s only one portion of my original post that’s been brought up. The subject of whose puppies is nicer looking or whose puppies are show quality has nothing to do with my original post. I’m not bashing anyone and I was never trolling for a fight. My post brings up legitimate facts and if there’s something on it that you don’t agree with let me know and if it makes sense I’m game for change. There’s no need for anyone to be quoting words off my website in attempts for slander, or assuming how many times I breed a dog, whether I have DNA records on my stud, etc. All that data is actually depicted on my website.
    You know, my intent of bringing up proper breeding was so people knew what to look for from those kennels not putting the time into their dogs by conducting health checks, providing good environments, breeding to better the breed, and doing all this legally. How can something like this upset you or make someone else struggle to find fault within my breeding practices? I’ve been in love with this breed for many, many years and everything that I do for my dogs and my breeding practices is done with as much attention to detail as possible. I may not be in your club but I too am trying to better the breed and provide a quality Bull Terrier to those who expect that. To date I have yet to have anyone say one negative thing about a puppy I have sold them. My dedication towards the breed is fed from the compliments I receive. Instead of batting against me, try and understand my view points and if you don’t agree that’s fine but there’s no need for anyone to make attempts to find fault in what I do as a breeder. Truth be told, if I analyzed some other breeder whether it be a BYB or avid show member I too could find fault. However, if that individual shared the same love and passion for the breed and was justly striving to better the breed in every aspect why would I???
     
  8. Azelgin

    Azelgin Puppy

    I wish I were as articulate in my words as you. I'm much better at face to face negotiatons. I know there have been attacks on your "style" of operation. In return, you've cast doubt on others that, are trying to do the right thing for the Bull Terrier, as you say you are.

    "Try this; entertain your fan crowd by providing them with a business license or tax ID number from any of your breeder friends on your golden list. If you want mine look up Bullies of NC, LLC. I pay my taxes and I conduct things like an honest citizen would."

    Your words, which to my seem to question the honesty of members that, follow a code of ethics, all dedicated to the same breed we all are here for.

    Perhaps, they would be better off to run their hobby as a business, and declare the financial loss that, I know some of them take from it. I know the person on that list that I bought mine from, over eleven years ago, was eating beans and rice, at a time when their dogs were getting the best care available. Not much profit from that litter.
     
  9. Azelgin:

    I've honestly been trying my best not to reply back with any negative remarks in retaliation towards all the bashing and derogatory remarks aimed at me. The above remark you quoted me with was really pale in comparison to the condescending remarks and slander that I got hit with. At least by reading your post I know you’re intelligent enough to realize that. Take the time to read the thread from start to finish and you'll probably agree that I've had a lot of patience. If I wasn't so proud of my dogs and all that we do for them I would have backed out of this thread with my tail between my legs a long time ago. However, I know that what I'm doing is within the top standards of the hardest bull terrier critiques. I realize I can't prove this via forum but you and I both know I don’t need to prove my efforts on a public forum. I provided food for thought on a subject that not too many people wish to talk about. If other breeders don’t agree they don’t have to. Individuals reading this thread that may be in pursuit of a puppy from a professional and reputable breeder can make their own decision. I don’t think anything I’ve said has jeopardized my character, integrity, or reputation. I have nothing against the clubs and realize many members love their Bullies as much as I do. You don’t see me going to their websites to copy and paste things that I see are wrong, things they aren’t doing, or questioning things I can’t see from their website. I simply choose to do things a little different in regard to the legalities of puppy sales and income.
     
  10. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    Bullies of NC,

    The post that disappeared the other night has been re-written to share with all.
    As I said before I do not agree with everything posted in the Finding a Reputable BT Breeder post.
    You state that the suggested Breed Club referral list is not a good source of contact.
    Those people on that list agree to abide by a Code of Ethics:
    http://www.btca.com/content/documents/pdf/BTCA_CODE_OF_ETHICS.pdf.

    I think that you will find those just a little bit more in depth then what you have posted. Do you have a Code of Ethics for your business?

    I asked a few questions about your definition of Championship lines and pedigrees to better understand your price list as I have never before seen pricing similar to a car add, economy right up to the deluxe models. You chose not to respond. Your privilege.
    Perhaps someday we will learn exactly what defines "showable Bloodlines", distinguished colors and markings, new terms to me, and AKC Champion bloodlines.
    You attacked hobby breeders and "backyard breeders" with your statements in "corrupt or honest" but that has already been dealt with.
    Let's move on to what every breeder should offer and see where I would and do, do it a bit different.
    1. AKC Registration Papers: Yes we register our litter and then give the new owner the required paperwork. Everyone wants them but how many actually fill the application out and pay the fee?
    2. AKC four generation litter pedigree. What we supply is the four generation pedigree of both the sire and dam along with the health testing results of both parents, including BAER hearing tests.
    The AKC will supply the puppies four generation pedigree if they choose to purchase it.
    3. Sales receipt is right on the new owners signed contract copy.
    4. Puppy Information Package.... Yes Indeed.
    5. Annotation( Explanatory Notes) of Puppy Food and schedule of feeding.. Yes and a supply of food to feed until they get to the store.
    6. Copy of the shot records for the puppies 1st set of shots from an actual Veterinarian not breeder?
    Sure we supply all the records including the vet check. We also supply the label from the vaccine we use as we are more then capable of giving shots and are very aware of both the storage and expiration dates on vaccines. We also include the puppies microchip information and registration paperwork.

    Deafness- It has been my experience with multiple Vet. Neurologists is that they insist the puppies should be tested between 6 and 8 weeks of age. ( I just helped my co-owner with two litters) If they can not achieve a clear reading they will mildly sedate the puppy as needed. If your deaf, either
    unilateral or bilateral your deaf at that age not 6 to 8 months.
    This just appears to be an excuse to get out of doing the testing. New owners purchase a puppy and it just doesn't seem to be listening to them, they wait until 6 to 8 months, as you say, and bond with their puppy. They're not going to return it when they find out it's deaf.
    Of course at 6 to 8 weeks they may have already left for their new home, we wait until at least 10 to 12 weeks before they leave.

    Kidney- UPC is the first indicator. We perform this test annually on all of our dogs. This is the Urine Protein Creatinine ratio which is further explained in the Code of Ethics. It is a urine sample test taken midstream, first thing in the morning. If a UTI or other problem is suspect they can do a needle stick directly into the bladder. The blood test would be a renal panel which gives values for Creatinine, BUN-Blood Urea Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Albumin and Potassium. An Ultrasound is also a recommended diagnostic procedure.

    Liver- I have never experienced this in 27 years in the breed, have never tested for it either. I will definitely check into it further.

    Heart- Heart mummers(sp) and arrhythmia's, if auscultated by a vet, are usually immediately referred to a cardiologist where we have a color echo doppler ultrasound performed. X-rays and EKG may show enlarged hearts and electrical conduction problems but will not show flow rates or valve problems.
    It has been my experience that heart problems may not present themselves until 2-1/2 years of age and that is why we do not breed bitches until three years of age. The second season you prescribe to could be one year of age, they are still teenagers, not yet mature. Your bullie children are having children.
    This is the first I have heard of a proBNP test, a fairly new test used to differentiate between cardiac and respiratory distress symptoms. I read that it is used to cut down on unnecessary diagnostic costs. We usually don't worry about that as ours are usually better taken care of then ourselves. Directly to the Cardiologist at the local 24 hr specialty hospital.
    Have only had respiratory problems in two older dogs, a Dobe rescue and my first bully bitch, both with congestive heart failure.

    Let's touch on What to Look for from a Reputable Breeder:
    • A well organized and informative website that provides answers to most every question that a consumer looking to purchase a puppy would want to know.
    Not all of us have them or can afford to have someone develop and maintain one for us. Businesses can deduct them as a cost of doing business.
    • Puppy Purchase Application. A good breeder will care deeply about their dogs and want to ensure their puppies are going to appropriate homes. Breeders usually have some type of application form to fill out prior to accepting a deposit.
    We have prospective owners fill out a rather in depth questionnaire and do not take deposits.
    • Photos of their Kennel facilities. Don’t believe the breeders who tell you all their dogs stay inside their homes unless they authentically have only 3 or 4 dogs. Most breeders won’t post any pictures of their dogs living areas or kennels because they know many would consider them to be poor and provide the consumer with the “Backyard Breeder or Puppy Mill” image.
    Why do you put a numerical value on the number of dogs someone can have in their house. Many I know have six or more living happily together. If you want to see my house just watch Dogs 101.
    • A reputable breeder will invite you to their kennel to show off their dogs and proudly display the health of dogs and their living conditions.
    Already covered and every puppy purchaser gets to visit as many times as they want but all visit at least once. Why? Because we do not ship. If you want one of our puppies you have to come pick him/her up.
    • Plenty of Photos of their adults along with a description about them. Is there a good mix of colored Bull Terriers? Breeding too many white to white bullies can cause genetic disorders.
    Why would this be a concern? It would only be a consideration if the only dogs being used in the breeding program were the dogs on site. Many, no most breeders use studs of others in an effort to better their lines.
    It increases the genetic pool and reduces the chances of doubling up on recessive genetic problems.
    • An actual four generation AKC pedigree for each dog. Don’t be fooled by breeders who build their own pedigrees. A scanned copy of the AKC 4 generation pedigree eliminates any doubts of inappropriate editing and false advertisement. Nothing beats the original document!
    Already addressed.
    • An actual AKC DNA Certificate for all Studs. Most people don’t realize the importance of conducting DNA tests on their breeding dogs. It’s one thing to claim the dog to be of the pedigree listed on his AKC papers and another to prove it.
    Already covered in our Code of Ethics.
    • Referrals - It’s always good to receive a referral from other people who have purchased a puppy from the breeder. Many breeders will include feedback from customers on their website.
    You can look up many of our puppies in local show results or better yet attend one of our club meetings or local specialties and meet the dogs and their owners.
    • A thorough explanation of their Health Guarantee should be depicted on their website.
    Covered in Code of Ethics. Where two years is recommended. A bit longer than yours.
    • A reputable breeder will provide rescue service for the type of dog they breed and devote towards placing those dogs in homes where they’ll be taken care of and loved.
    The BTCA has a dedicated rescue program which is funded by both the members and other individuals and organizations. They rescue BT's in need, not just those of its members.
    Check out the Rescue link on the BTCA web site.

    I hope this will explain why I recommend the Breeder Referral List to everyone!

    And lastly;

    "Then again that private home breeder may very well be selling 9 champion puppies at $4000 for each puppy. Nothing wrong with pocketing $36,000 without paying taxes, right?"

    Your example is so far over the top. The highest price I have seen for a bully was at a pet store and they wanted $3,495.00. Puppies of mine have never exceeded half of the amount you state. And I can assure you that they were from Champion lines.


    Nothing derogatory, just my opinions and practices.

    P.S. Thanks for doing rescue and Thanks to you and your partner for your service to our country. That is appreciated. And this is Rufus' latest charity endeavor: http://www.caninesupportteams.org/paws4vets.html



     
  11. Azelgin

    Azelgin Puppy

    Excellent information, Tom. Thanks for taking the time to put it back together. The "visit to pick up a puppy" reminded me that we did a 4,500 mile round trip for Buck. The crazy things we do for our Bullies.
     
  12. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    Thanks You Randy! Much appreciated!
     
  13. Bullful, somehow I knew you’d be back. This thread must really bother you. Is it because you somehow feel challenged or guilty about something I wrote? Maybe it’s me. Hey, just because you don’t know me doesn’t mean I’m the enemy.
    Wow, it appears you’ve once again invested a lot of time copying and pasting. The code of ethics that your club has annotated contains some good information for members to follow. I think it’s a good document to provide all your members with in hopes that they’ll abide by it. With many members I can see how certain ethics need to be written and enforced. Nope, you’re right, I do not have a written code of ethics. Do you think I should write one and read it to myself periodically? Both Craig and I see eye to eye on our own moral code of ethics when it comes to raising and breeding Bull Terriers. These ethics don’t need to be written down, taught to us, or used as a reminder.
    The questions you’ve asked me, that you say I haven’t answered, are clearly depicted on my website. The pedigree prices are obviously a tool I utilize for appropriately pricing our puppies. You see, based on how many people visit our establishment we tend to get a high volume of people who place a deposit and dedicate themselves to wait patiently for a puppy from an upcoming litter. This year we’ve only had 2 litters which include both Craig’s kennel and mine. However, I’m expecting a litter from Cyra today or tomorrow. Look at the dates on our waiting list and you may be able to see for yourself that some of them have been on the list for a long time. If you put one in one together you might realize it’s because we don’t have many litters each year. The first person on our list has been waiting since December 2010. All the people on the list have been thoroughly screened not just on paper but during the time they arrived at our house to meet us and our family of bullies. What do you think the reason would be that once we provided the approval to receive a future puppy from us that they wasted no time ending their pursuit for the right breeder and placed a deposit with us? Due to the vast amount of people who stop over here and wish to purchase a puppy we’ve opted to choose a fair way to sell our puppies based on first come first serve after they have been approved. Many times they have to wait a long time and the deposit is a good indicator of their commitment to purchase. I’ll admit not everyone is happy that leaves after a visit here. I’m not shy to tell someone that I don’t feel their knowledge on the bull terrier breed isn’t sufficient enough to provide confidence to me that this breed of dog is appropriate for them. Others have left mad at me because I wouldn’t provide their female stud service because I thought it wouldn’t do justice for the breed based on the assessment of their female and pedigree of their dog.
    Next you mentioned me attacking BYB’s. Sure I don’t like to see people breeding any type of dog inappropriately and doing so in disregard for bettering the quality and health. Are you mad because you think I was referring to you or one of your friends? I think my statement was clear enough to understand what form of breeders I was talking about and you don’t need a Captain Crunch decoder ring to decipher it.
    You annotated the subjects of “What every breeder should offer with the sale of a puppy” with only a couple deviations from what I already provide. The first was not only providing the AKC registration but filling it out and submitting it. You know what, that was first thing you have said that I will have to agree with that I’m not doing. I like this idea and agree to its purpose. I’m going to have to copy you with this procedure starting with Cyra’s upcoming litter. Supplying each person with a scanned copy of the sire and dam’s pedigree is something we’ve been doing for years. However, we also like to provide them with a litter pedigree certificate. Sales receipt and contract is something we both do. On our contract we a lot of written policies one of being that they have the understanding if the puppy is ever in need of placement it is to return back to us. We actually provide 2 puppy packages (1) from AKC which I’m sure you’re familiar with and (1) from Royal Canin in which they will also receive a sample food package. We are both providing a proper feeding schedule. Now we need to talk a little about the last item – Shot Records. Here’s where I don’t agree with you. You or another breeder may very well have the knowledge and experience to conduct vaccinations on your puppies. My wife has gone through several of the courses at the local college for veterinarian assistant, not for employment purposes, but for additional knowledge and education that would benefit us with our breeding practices. Yes, we have the capabilities to provide vaccinations ourselves but have chosen not to. One thing you may not realize is that many veterinarians could care less about you providing them with the label from the vaccination as proof of administering the shots. Even the vets around here won’t entertain this practice unless the breeder is a board certified veterinarian. He’s explained that he will not risk his license on the word of any breeder claiming to have conducted the vaccinations. I understand some vets are good with trusting the word of any breeder who comes in with a label from a vaccination but realize some won’t and will insist the puppy get re-vaccinated. For this reason alone we would rather have them vaccinated by a vet during the time the puppies are receiving their health checks and being appropriately tested for ailments common to the breed as I’ve listed in my post. Once completed I have documents from a certified veterinarian with tests results, health check assessment, and vaccination records. In all cases this satisfies the requirements for any veterinarian with whom the new owner brings their puppy to. I guarantee you will run into problems with some vets who will not accept your label as proof of vaccinations. That label proves nothing. I urge you to rethink your decision on this subject and save a puppy from having to receive duplicate vaccinations.
    Deafness – You’re very fortunate that you have a place to go where they’ll BAER test your puppies at such an early stage. The only place around here that will BAER test is at the NC State College of Veterinary Medicine. However, due to development stage of young puppy they do not recommend testing them due to proven inaccuracies of a puppies so young. The brainstem auditory evoked response (BAER) is recommended for dogs at later stages of development. They are rated #3 in the nation and have a vast amount of knowledge and experience when it comes to genetic testing. They are 3 hours from us and have no problem BAER testing adults. My hands are tied with this one. If possible please provide me with the name, company, school, or clinic that provides you with BAER testing so maybe I could use them as an example to my vet in attempts to convince them to do the same for our puppies.
    Kidney’s – We’re on the same page with Kidney tests. However, an ultrasound is usually only warranted if abnormal results are present from the testing. Do you have to perform ultrasounds often on your puppies?
    Liver – Yes, you should look into this. The bull terrier breed is among the breed types that are known to store excess amounts of copper in their system causing liver problems. Here’s an article on it: http://www.squidoo.com/dog-liver-disease-diet
    Heart – proBNP testing has been around for a while. We have yet to have a puppy or dog in need of this test. X-rays and EKG’s were mentioned in my post.

    You didn’t have too many faults in regard to “What to Look for From a Reputable Breeder.” You’re right, you don’t need a fancy website to be a good breeder but having one answers a lot of questions and provides reassurance to the consumer that the breeder cares enough to expose themselves and proudly publicize their dogs, breeding practices, and policies. My website has over 40 pages alone and satisfies most all questions. We both have questionnaires. However, my assessment on whether someone should purchase one of our puppies is decided after I meet them or speak to them in grave detail for those residing far away from our location. If you have 6 dogs in your house at all times my hats off to you. We always have at least 4 dogs in the house. Right now I know there are 5 in here and Rocky (my 6 month old puppy) is driving Kolohe (8 year old female) crazy right now wishing to drag her around by her collar. I rotate my dogs in and out daily and try my best to keep it to 4 dogs in at once.
    The studs we utilize are our studs and they are from completely different bloodlines. All our studs are DNA tested. We also perform sperm counts on them to ensure they’re where they need to be for proper breeding. To be honest our last sperm count on Lucian proved to be at a count too low for us to consider him for future stud service unless surgical intra-uterine insemination is conducted to ensure sperm is injected right into the uterine horns. There’s a lot of debate on breeding too many white to white bull terriers. That’s another whole debate in itself. Unless there are a wide variety of colors in the pedigree we choose not to nor do we practice line breeding. I hope this doesn’t bring up reasons why you or anyone else encourages line breeding. Just understand we prefer not to.
    Lastly, my cost analysis on puppies wasn’t directed at you so stop taking everything so personal. Sometimes I wonder if you think I posted this thread to find fault in your practices or someone else from BTCA. That wasn’t my intent at all. I’m after the breeders who aren’t investing the proper time and efforts to breeding appropriately. If you know you’re doing things properly and professionally you shouldn’t feel the need to provide me your resume.

    Hey, what’s the chance of starting over again and trying to be friendly with each other? I realize we’re providing everyone with a saga of information and debates but I don’t wish for any of this to start getting personal with low blows. I’m not looking for any compliments from you just acknowledge to yourself that maybe I am in this for the love of the breed.
     
  14. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    I could honestly give a shit less what "some" breeders do... the bigger problem, is over breeding of dogs, not what they are claiming for fuck sake. the comment i made was in reference to people being corrupt, as if our government is a wee virgin ripe for the picking... please.
     
  15. Hey no bad words potty mouth. I thought we were lol together?
     
  16. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    Bullies of NC,

    My problem was that you thought the Breeder referral list was the wrong place to go for information. Actually even the AKC says that you should contact the parent club of the breed you are interested in, for many of the reasons I have posted.
    You will noticed that I have never advertised puppies on these forums.
    One left my co-owners home two weeks ago and my pup is going to her forever home this week at 5 months so that I can guarantee that she is of show quality. I will be very sad when she leaves but I know that they will be more than satisfied. Actually they are driving up from NC this week.
    Your waiting list probably works great for you but since we don't breed often an occasional e-mail keeps them in the loop and we don't take deposits to hold them because we never know for sure if we will have the right puppy for them. Some wait, some don't but we always refer them to other breeders that we feel are the most reputable if they can't wait. As I said the last litters were four years ago.
    As far as the registrations, we let our puppy people pick the name they want as long as it is agreed upon. They sign, decide if they want the pedigree, and send it in.

    Have never had an issue with vaccination confirmation with any of our puppies. The owners receive an envelope with the lot# stickers attached and date and time administered, microchip registration and implant information and other documentation. We also supply a copy of Dr. Jean Dodd's new vaccination protocol: http://www.dogs4dogs.com/puppy-shots.htm.
    If my vet would insist on revaccination I would find another vet. They work for me and we have to have a trusting relationship.
    As far as the BAER testing we are lucky to have three within an hour+ drive.
    I'm sure if you do a google search you can find them all. AMC NYC, U-Penn,
    Animal Specialty Center, Yonkers, NY. We do go to a certified Neurologist to have then performed. I was actually told once to make sure not to bring anymore over the age of 8 weeks.
    Kidneys- Nope, have not had any reason to have it performed, but I did wait until four years of age to use my stud dog to make sure his UPC remained good. I was told at a seminar on kidney disease in bullies that problems could present up to the age of four years.
    Thanks for the informative article on liver disease and copper. I will put it in my medical articles file.
    Dogs in the house, well we just don't want those AR folks or local planning board/ordinance people ever hearing that more than (quantity here) dogs are not good. We actually have a co-owned bitch living with 16 Mastiffs, who use the same procedure as you. It works great for them and you would never know dogs are in the house,spotless and smells like spring.
    White to White or White to White carrying color? Nobody wants to be bored with genetics. No argument on line breeding, it should be used wisely.
    Actually you attacked all hobby breeders with your corrupt or honest subject line. Yes, I imagine there are those that breed more then most and probably do so to supplement their income and maybe even cover show and travel expenses. Many just make ends meet or even fall far into the red.
    "I’m after the breeders who aren’t investing the proper time and efforts to breeding appropriately."

    If that were the case why would you criticize the use of the breeder referral list to find a breeder and puppies.

    Honestly, after reading your post I thought that you came off as a chest thumping salesman advertising a one stop all you need puppy dealer.
    Glad that you have changed my mind with your last post. Yeah we can start over. Acknowledged on this end. This breed is everything to me and I try my best to point anyone that asks in the right direction to find what they need. The BTCA website is a wealth of knowledge and fanciers should familiarize themselves with it. It will benefit all.

    Tom

    ---------- Post added 12-19-2011 at 12:03 AM ---------- Previous post was 12-18-2011 at 10:39 PM ----------

     
  17. Bulfull,
    It’s good to see you have toned down on the backlash. In reply to the first portion of your post, I never changed my mind or direction in my last post. However, I think your now just starting to see my perspective and realize I’m in this for all the right reasons. Additionally, I ask that you scroll back to the first few posts and reread them. I think much of your initial anger stemmed from you assuming I was in some way retaliating against the BTCA breeders and speaking about them in a negative fashion. I don’t see that in any statement I wrote but if it was perceived that way I apologize. I merely tried my best to state that there are other reputable breeders out there whose names aren’t depicted on the BTCA listing. Would it honestly change matters if my name was listed? I don’t think it would enhance my love for the breed or my efforts for developing beautiful healthy puppies. When you posted to another forum member to seek the BTCA listing for a reputable breeder you might as well said I’m not a reputable breeder. You know what you did was wrong and you immediately began a long pursuit trying to pick fault within my breeding ethics and documentation on my website. I think I’ve proven otherwise. I hope by now there might be this little voice in your head saying “Hey, this guy may be legit.” You won’t find any negative complaints about Bullies of NC no matter how far you dig. I agree, BTCA website has an abundance of detailed documents that are outstanding especially the description of the standards. I have the PDF file downloaded and utilize it often.

    In reply to the second portion of your post, you used the worst possible example of a small litter with medical needs. In this situation the additional expenses would be income lost and claimed. However, at least by claiming it you wouldn’t be as upset about the misfortunes pertaining to the financial expenses associated with this particular litter. In all actuality you could have added a lot more expenses to consider within your example but you’re synareo isn’t far fetched at all and I’ve had my fair share of experiences similar to what you mention. We had a litter of 11 about five years ago that required a lot of attention as well as bottle feeding. Fortunately all 11 grew to be healthy as can be but boy was it a constant commitment.
    My concern isn’t with reputable hobby breeders and no state would put forth the money and time to go after a hobby breeder that had 1 or 2 litters every 4 or 5 years and didn’t claim the income. Even if there was profit in these litters (in most cases there would be) they would fly over the radar. However, for those breeders having 2 or more litters per year I’m adamant about taking the time to claim income and file taxes. Have you ever gone to the Vets office and seen all those advertisements on their peg board for AKC puppies from breeders? Are those business cards or breeder cards? I guess my point is if you’re advertising anywhere on the internet or newspaper as a breeder for the sale of puppies you’re marking yourself as a salesman no matter how you slice it. In your case, as a hobby breeder with a proven reputation and seldom litters, advertising is unnecessary because you’re most likely homing your puppies through people you know and which have already been waiting a long time to acquire one from you. I’m sure having seldom litters over a long course of time makes things easier and less complicated and leaves little speculation for anyone to assume illegal income is being achieved through puppy sales. Again, nowhere on my post does it mention hobby breeders who are doing things inappropriately.

    Tom, I have nothing against how YOU are conducting matters with your Bull Terriers. However, there’s way too many people out there doing things inappropriately. Please don’t try and put me in that group solely because I’ve chosen not to be on the BTCA breeders list.
    My invitation is still open for a visit here and I have no hard feelings towards you. I realize you’re voicing your opinion for the good of the breed just as I am.


    -Steve
     
  18. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    Hi Steve,

    I saw the announcement of your SJ20 litter on facebook, Congrats.
    I noticed that it is another "unique" litter with a few liver pups. Pedigree V & VI ? These are being advertised at your higher prices yet the color liver is considered highly undesirable. Not what any reputable breeder would consider a distinguished color and reputable breeders should breed as close to the standard as possible right?

    From the Bull Terrier Club standard:

    "For white, pure white coat. Skin pigmentation and markings on head not to be penalised. For coloured, colour predominates; all other things being equal, brindle preferred. Black, brindle, red, fawn and tricolour acceptable. Tick markings in white coat undesirable. Blue and liver highly undesirable."


    ...and in Staffies, black and tan, and liver colored are to be disqualified.

    For more reading on the genetics of color in the BT I have attached the following link.
    http://minibullies-sa.net/colourinbullterrierspart1colourexpression.pdf

    Is Maximus in Cyra or Bucks pedigree? And will you be doing a repeat of this breeding?
    If I had bred these dogs the sire and dam would be taken out of my breeding program and the pups would be sold as pets (that would be at less than your Pedigree I) on a spay/neuter contract so that they could never be bred.

    Not an arguing point, just an example of what I believe is reputable. We all have our own standards and I am just sharing mine.


    Wishing everyone a Happy and Healthy New Year!
     
  19. Tom,

    That would be a legitimate point had there be any puppies within this litter that were liver or a color outside the breed standard. All puppies in this litter are within the standards and, in my opinion, extremely good quality. I understand you may still be in pursuit to condemn my reputation but before you cast judgment inappropriately please take the time to view the puppies again with a little more effort. Here’s a link to several photos of each puppy from the litter we just had. I took these photos 3 days ago. Please entertainment me with the puppy you consider to be undesirable in regard to color standards. Better yet, let me know which was has liver pigment. This litter has drawn a lot of attention by other Bull Terrier enthusiasts. So far, you're the only one unimpressed. I will try my best not to lose sleep over your oppinion especially when your evaluation was incorrect. All puppies but one have already been sold to loving homes during the first week.

    For those who are curious about the puppies from this litter please view - [video=youtube;OHynqCxM5rk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHynqCxM5rk&list=PL825ADD881FE6564E&index=2&feature=plpp_video[/video].

     
  20. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    Steve,

    I am impressed and based on the newest video must admit my first impression was incorrect. Now at a week older they look different. Your boy 2 & 4 and girl 2 looked very different in the FB announcemet I recieved. This is the first I have seen a black and fawn tri like girl#2.
    Still a unique looking litter!
    Good Luck with all of them.
     

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