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Finding a Professional and Reputable Bull Terrier Breeder

Discussion in 'Bull Terrier' started by Bullies of NC, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. What to Look For From a Reputable Breeder

    Here’s a subject that will be answered differently by every breeder. For some breeders it’s a touchy subject especially if they’re not exactly breeding appropriately. For many breeders the things I plan on bringing up here will be very much disliked because too many breeders are breeding to make a profit without even reporting their income to good old Uncle Sam.

    (1) Every Breeder Should Offer the Following Items with the Sale of a Puppy:
    • AKC Registration Papers
    • AKC Four Generation Litter Pedigree
    • Health Guarantee
    • Sales Receipt
    • Puppy Information Package
    • Annotation of Puppy Food and schedule of feeding
    • Copy of the Shot Records for the puppies 1[SUP]st[/SUP] set of shots from an actual Veterinarian not Breeder.
    It is very important that puppies are tested for known genetic disorders within the breed. It’s obvious that not all of these tests can be conducted on a 6 – 8 week old puppy so it’s very important to know the overall health of the breeding sire and dam as well as the tests conducted to all the breeder’s adult dogs. Some of the more popular disorders associated with Bull Terriers are:
    • Deafness – A Baer Test is utilized for checking to see if there is any hearing impairment. Unfortunately many veterinarians do not offer this testing due to lack of testing equipment. Additionally other veterinarians will mandate the puppy to be at least 6 months old before attempting to get an accurate reading based on their growth and development.
    • Skin Allergies – Intradermal allergy tests is a specific test utilized to test dogs to see if they have any allergic reactions which cause skin problems and itching. This is an extensive test averaging 1 hour at which time the dog is sedated and receives 60 injections made into the skin. The price of this test is $250. It is not a recommendation to have this test conducted on puppies simply to provide verified proof that each puppy from the litter is free from skin disorders. However, it is a good idea to thoroughly look over both parents of the litter to ensure they show no signs of allergies or skin problems. Most skin allergies in Bull Terriers are caused from food and improper diet. My experience is that foods containing high volumes of grain can trigger allergies in some dogs. We have rescued a few Bull Terriers that had serious skin allergies that we learned were caused from the food they were eating. After putting these dogs on a no grain diet and supplementing their food with a couple squirts of salmon oil it cured their skin conditions within a few short weeks. Obviously this may not be the answer to all allergies and intradermal allergy testing may be warranted for some dogs where proper diet isn’t the cause.
    Some may suggest Serum-Based tests for allergy problems which is a simple blood test. However, this test does not require any expertise and has the disadvantage of resulting in false positives which can cause treatment for an allergy that doesn’t exist.
    • Kidney – A complete blood chemistry profile test including a blood count is the only way of accurately testing for kidney problems. The most common test for kidney disease is called Creatinine Test. Kidney disease is often a hereditary factor for kidney problems within Bull Terriers. A urinalysis test is another practice used for determining kidney problems. Similar to Allergy Testing, a proper and professional Kidney test is not a simple procedure. A common sign of kidney problems within a puppy is drinking excessive water as well as dehydration, vomiting, and diarrhea.
    • Liver – When conducting blood tests for genetic disorders it is important to test for Portosystemic Shunts to ensure there are no liver problems. There are a few types of shunts but Congenital Shunts can be found at birth. It is recommended that a bile acid test be run before and after eating to determine if liver shunt is detected.
    • Heart – During a puppies health check a veterinarian will let you know if they detect a heart problem. Heart mummers and weak heart rhythms will be indicators to a veterinarian that further tests are required for diagnosing heart disease. If a concern is apparent it is recommended to have an x-ray conducted. In the event abnormalities are found it will then be necessary to conduct a proBNP Test and/or EKG.
    The above listed ailments are the ones most prone to the Bull Terrier breed. The most important factor when health checking a litter of puppies is finding a veterinarian who is familiar with the Bull Terrier breed and thoroughly tests them for known disorders and medical ailments.

    (2) What to Look for from a Reputable Breeder:
    • A well organized and informative website that provides answers to most every question that a consumer looking to purchase a puppy would want to know.
    • Puppy Purchase Application. A good breeder will care deeply about their dogs and want to ensure their puppies are going to appropriate homes. Breeders usually have some type of application form to fill out prior to accepting a deposit.
    • Photos of their Kennel facilities. Don’t believe the breeders who tell you all their dogs stay inside their homes unless they authentically have only 3 or 4 dogs. Most breeders won’t post any pictures of their dogs living areas or kennels because they know many would consider them to be poor and provide the consumer with the “Backyard Breeder or Puppy Mill†image.
    • A reputable breeder will invite you to their kennel to show off their dogs and proudly display the health of dogs and their living conditions.
    • Plenty of Photos of their adults along with a description about them. Is there a good mix of colored Bull Terriers? Breeding too many white to white bullies can cause genetic disorders.
    • An actual four generation AKC pedigree for each dog. Don’t be fooled by breeders who build their own pedigrees. A scanned copy of the AKC 4 generation pedigree eliminates any doubts of inappropriate editing and false advertisement. Nothing beats the original document!
    • An actual AKC DNA Certificate for all Studs. Most people don’t realize the importance of conducting DNA tests on their breeding dogs. It’s one thing to claim the dog to be of the pedigree listed on his AKC papers and another to prove it.
    • Referrals - It’s always good to receive a referral from other people who have purchased a puppy from the breeder. Many breeders will include feedback from customers on their website.
    • A thorough explanation of their Health Guarantee should be depicted on their website.
    • A reputable breeder will provide rescue service for the type of dog they breed and devote towards placing those dogs in homes where they’ll be taken care of and loved.
    (3) Corrupt or Honest
    Here’s something that many people never even think about. Is the breeder selling puppies without accounting for the income? Is it bad thing if a breeder sells their puppies and doesn’t claim the income when tax time comes? I guess if the breeder rarely had a litter or if the cost of the puppies were relatively cheap it could be considered “under the table†income much like the kid selling lemonade in front of his house for 25 cents. However, it doesn’t take a genius to realize a breeders’ income from a litter of 8 puppies selling for $1500 per puppy. Let’s say that breeder only had two litters the entire year. That would equate to $24,000 which in all reality is about what some people make annually working full time. The truth is, any breeder charging money for a puppy should be claiming this and if they are, is it a business? Does the pet store charge tax on a puppy they sell and do they pay taxes on the sales of their pets? Actually many states do not require breeders to have a business license. However, claiming the income during tax time is a different story. Just because a breeder doesn’t have an actual business because the state doesn’t deem it necessary doesn’t mean they can pocket the sales of their puppies without having to pay taxes. However, MANY breeders do and still charge high prices on their puppies without any concern.

    Many breeders will shun the idea of having a “breeding business†and try their best to say anybody that has a breeding business is only trying to make money by breeding dogs without any care of breeding healthy quality puppies. In all actuality the opposite is true because if it was all about making the most money the way to do it would be to simply pocket the entire amount of money through the sale of every puppy, stud service, etc.

    Any way you slice it, if you’re selling puppies you have to be legal and pay Uncle Sam for your earnings regardless of how many litters you have a year.

    Here’s a funny note – Most breeders would be mad that I brought this subject up because they are opposed of the reality behind legally selling puppies and do not feel it should be considered a small business. However, they’ll be the first to give you their business card when they sell you a puppy. Odd how that works.
    If you want to test integrity and values ask the breeder if they are licensed and insured by the state to sell puppies and whether they are claiming the income earned from the advertised litter. I’ll bet you most will say they don’t have to do that if they’re a private breeder. Then again that private home breeder may very well be selling 9 champion puppies at $4000 for each puppy. Nothing wrong with pocketing $36,000 without paying taxes, right?

    *** Please note, these are my views and opinions. We know where we stand as breeders and pride ourselves on our breeding practices and honesty. The above information was not written as a tool to gain popularity for us. We actually don’t have very many litters available each year. However, we provide this information to you so you can use it in the pursuit to find a top quality Bull Terrier puppy from a reputable breeder. Please feel free to build yourself a questionnaire from the topics listed above and present it to any breeder you research in your pursuit for a Bull Terrier puppy. ***
  2. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    Hello Bullies of NC I have seen your site many times. A friend of mine has a female by Maximus and shes stunning as can be. I noticed Maximus was bred to a tri female and had like 4 liver colored puppies, they were very pretty.
  3. Yes, that was a very unique litter. I never got to actually see the puppies but received many photos. It was actually the first time I saw a liver Bull Terrier in a Tri color. Not exactly the sought after color of choice for the show circuit but unique due to the rarity. The dam came from Ann-Dees lines. That litter of puppies gained a lot of attention.

    4-Red Tri's.jpg 2 Tri's.jpg Puppy 2.jpg
  4. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    Unique, what a nice term. Why wouldn't they be the choice for the show circuit?
  5. Although the standards in regard to a colored Bull Terrier do not dictate specific colors, the lack of black pigmentation on their noses would fault them as would the lighter color tone in the eyes. Additionally, many die hard enthusiasts have negative oppinions when it comes to liver bull terriers.

    The word "unique" fits them well as they are a rareity in color and most certainly attract many viewers.
  6. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    my friend had one just like the tris. she was beautiful, I personally wouldnt have one. Im just assuming it came from Maximus since his nose is liver colored.
  7. buffmaxwell

    buffmaxwell Little Dog

    Bullies of NC dont get tripped up on your words on here.
  8. Studies say in order to produce a liver dog both parents must possess the gene. A bb genotype is responsible for liver colored or pink noses.

    My preference in color has always been brindle but it wouldn't bother me a bit to have owned one of those Liver colored Tri's. :)

    ---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 AM ----------

    What a dumb thing to say.

    As a new comer to this forum I hope this forum isn't full of individuals eagering looking to critize, bash, or create controversy. Yesterday I looked through some old posts and it was apparent there's some arrogant people posting their opinions and trying hard to sound like subject matter experts.

    Forums are supposed to be used as a place to speak and learn about particular topics. Knowledge and experiences from a variety of people where everybody can learn something.

    Buffmaxwell - I suggest you calculate your comments in your head prior to typing and publishing. Your comment was unwarranted.
  9. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    Don't mean to criticize, just curious... If you yourself have 10-20 (I understand that many are rescues), do you not consider yourself a reputable breeder? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding...

    "Photos of their Kennel facilities. Don’t believe the breeders who tell you all their dogs stay inside their homes unless they authentically have only 3 or 4 dogs. Most breeders won’t post any pictures of their dogs living areas or kennels because they know many would consider them to be poor and provide the consumer with the “Backyard Breeder or Puppy Mill” image."
  10. I hope you didn't expect me to answer that question with a "No."

    I'm trying to figure out what exactly you're asking. Do I consider myself a reputable breeder? Why wouldn't I? The sentences you copied and pasted doesn't differ from my beliefs or my practices. I rotate my dogs in and out of the house and proudly display the custom made kennel facilities I utilize. Not one person ever to visit us here hasn't been thoroughly impressed with the health of our dogs and the environment they're raised in. I'm at home with my dogs all day spending every hour with them. For most that only own one dog I'm not sure they can say the same.

    I currently have 10 Bull Terriers and my partner in Jacksonville has 4. As much as I'd love to leave them all roam the house freely I only allow 4 in at a time. They all get rotated and come in and out on a daily basis. They're all trained and get along with each other. Why not stop by for visit the next time you're in the area. There's 6 acres here for your Bull Terrier to run and he can play with the other bullies.

    Here's a quick photo I snapped from my cell phone of 2 of my Bullies sitting next to me while I write this. (They said "Hello curious one.")

    2 Bullies, Dec 14th.jpg
  11. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    I agree, I wouldnt want more than 4 inside either, sounds like a nice set up to me. I would love to have a set up like that I am jealous!
  12. aprotopo

    aprotopo Big Dog

    I see what you meant now. I think that you're saying to be wary of breeders who advertise that all of their dogs are ALWAYS in the house?

    Very cute photo! :)
  13. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    I am curious what health guarantee do you offer?
  14. We offer a one year guarantee against any form of genetic disorder or health condition. To date we have never had someone that we've sold a puppy to contact us in regard to a health condition which related to an inheritance issue.

    Our Health Guarantee
  15. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    Hello Bullies of NC,

    Welcome to the forum.

    I visited your website and must say it is very well done, probably one of the most professionally done that I have ever seen. Wish I had the ways and means to have one like it however I am just what you would call a backyard breeder. Actually the only backyard breeding I ever did was on the back deck and it was pretty successful. That would be the "S" litter on the Joker website if you're interested.

    Your "finding the right breeder" article is informative although I do not agree with all your points.

    Your have some very nice bitches, but I was unable to read any of their AKC pedigrees.
    Could you please share with us what lines they are from. I did see in your stud dog page that you had used Yana and Milan's, Ch. Lionheart's Force of One. What other Champion stud dogs do you use or are all your breedings done with the stud dogs and bitches that you and your partners own?

    I found your purchase price listing very interesting. What are showable bloodlines?
    When they have AKC Champion Bloodlines does that mean on both the sire and dam's side, and how many generations?
    What exactly are Champion puppies? Have they become Champions before they are sold?

    Pedigree I:
    $1200 AKC Pet Quality with reputable bloodlines.

    Pedigree II: $1400 AKC Pet Quality with reputable bloodlines with distinguished colors and markings.

    Pedigree III: $1600 AKC Pet Quality with showable bloodlines.

    Pedigree IV: $1800 AKC Pet Quality with showable bloodlines with distinguished colors and markings.

    Pedigree V: $2000 AKC Champion bloodlines.

    Pedigree VI: $2200 AKC Champion bloodlines with distinguished colors and markings.

    If you don't mind me asking, how many puppies a year do you sell? I saw that you have 10 bitches in your breeding program and you breed them multiple times. I have four bitches myself but only two have been bred and only one litter each. We only breed our bitches twice and then they are retired to the couch. This year I bred two litters from co-owned bitches and only had 4 puppies total. Not very lucky. Two keepers and two sold. One show prospect and one pet. Bloodlines couldn't have been better yet they sold for less than most on your list. We're just not a good business folks, I guess. After all those health tests,UPC/kidney,blood panels,heart (auscultation & color echo doppler ultrasounds), surgical implants, c-sections,semen purchase and transport, BAER hearing tests and other vet bills I'm looking for a way to deduct my losses on my taxes. Guess you can only do that if your a business though. So much for that $36,000 unreported profit!
    Haven't bred anything else in four years due to the economy and lack of good forever homes. We do spend much of our time fighting BSL and raising funds for rescue organizations. Saw that you "devote" to placing dogs in homes. Do you also donate to rescue organizations.
    Are all of your dogs identifiable by tattoo or microchip so they can be reunited if lost or abandoned? Ours all are and our stud dogs are all DNA profiled. We feel that we are responsible for them from cradle to grave. Something we feel all reputable breeders should be, accountable!

    Looking forward to hearing new ideas and sharing subject matter, expert or otherwise.

    ---------- Post added at 12:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

    Noticed that you used the pencil drawing from page 5 of the BTCA Standard for you gifts page banner.
  16. Hucklebutt

    Hucklebutt Banned Back Yard Breeder

    And I quote Timon from The Lion King "It starts."
  17. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    I love the professionalism of your posts, and am going to check out your website. I do however have questions about the Pedigree thing and what makes the puppies on the latter end so much more money than the others. I would love to know what they or their parents accomplished to earn such a tag.


    I would love to see the website for Bullful though, I like you only having a small number of bitches and would love to see the way your dogs are shaped. I have been tossing around the idea of getting a BT for my partner, they seem like they would mesh with his personality much more than any other bully breed. I am more into body structure than accomplishments, and like that you get all the health testing you do. That is very important to me, even if the dog is just a "pet" it shows you have a higher status for your dogs, not just looking good and winning things but being healthy well balanced dogs.
    You could PM me link if you dont want to post it here.
  18. Bullful

    Bullful Little Dog

    Hi Pookie,

    Sorry but we will not be having any more puppies for a while. As I said previously the house is full, we have no kennels and all of our dogs live inside with us 24/7. We would not have any space for a returned pup and we feel with so many people losing jobs and homes it is better to wait. Leaves a few more open doors for recues, which there seems to be an abundance of at this time. Where do they all come from? No tattoo's or microchips so they can't contact the breeder and have them take responsibility for them, so rescue organizations funded by donations, do the work to find them new forever homes.
    I would suggest that you visit the BTCA's website and their Breeder referral list for a reputable breeder near you. Perhaps even check out the rescue link and consider being a hero to some unfortunate bullie.
    Our website has not been updated in almost six years and the pictures of our boys first litter in Austria are still on there.
    We have only bred four litters and our health tested stud dog has only had 12 litters. Two of those earned him the BTCA's Stud Dog of the Year award in 2006 & 2007, based on the offsprings accomplishments. I will post his daughters pedigree so you can see what Champion lines look like on a pedigree.
    Just type in Bullful on your internet browser or for photos and stories google Rufus the colored bull terrier.
    He also appears in February's Dog World magazine in their article Titles at Both Ends.

    Good Luck!

    ---------- Post added at 10:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 AM ----------

  19. Bullful,

    I’ve only been on this forum for 2 days and it’s become apparent that your questions to me aren’t authentic and are conducted in a manner of arrogance. I understand your goal is to highlight and commend only the breeders within BTCA as creditable and condemn all those who aren’t affiliated with this “CLUB.” I’m going to let you in on a little secret – You don’t have to be member of the BTCA to raise beautiful and healthy Bull Terriers and you darn sure don’t have to be a member of this club to share the love and interest of the Bull Terrier breed. You may be totally against backyard breeders who are in it for financial gain and put the breed at risk for health disorders and I concur with those beliefs. However, becoming a member of a particular “Club” doesn’t automatically grant those with instant knowledge, professionalism, and wisdom to become reputable breeders. We’ve been doing things right for many years and although we don’t dedicate our time to travel the country and show our dogs we dedicate every minute of the day into raising, training, and caring for the ones we have. Telling someone to read through a club list to find a good breeder is not the proper thing to do and think you know that. The proper thing to do is go see them and their dogs and get familiar with who they are, the health of their dogs, and the environment they’re raised in. You seem to be stuck on the subjects of showing and champion. Here’s a heart wrenching fact that you’re going to hate to hear – Most avid Bull Terrier lovers don’t even show their dog and most people looking to purchase a Bull Terrier aren’t doing it for the future goal of showing their dog. They fall in love with the breed due to their unique personality, character, and appearance.
    Note – I’m a car fanatic as well and have been so since I was 13 years old. I enjoy restoring cars to pristine conditions as well as quarter mile racing. When I was younger I used to compete in shows and must admit did very well. I was a member a few different car clubs and devoted my time towards showing my cars. I no longer dedicate my time with the clubs or even showing cars. I mention this to you because I don’t wish for you think now that I’m no longer a part of any car club that I don’t have the capabilities to conduct professional quality work to the cars I work on today as a hobby.

    Listen Bullful, you’ve had prestigious success with showing your dog Rufus and I commend you on it. It’s undisputable that Rufus is gorgeous Bull Terrier. There are many gorgeous Bull Terriers out there as well and some that aren’t walking across the show ring. I realize you have a bunch of followers that listen to your every word and ride off your skirt tails but realize one day there will come a sad day when Rufus is gone. During that time you might find that people may not take to your sarcasm and condescending remarks the same way. Gloat in your success now, but I hope something I said opens your eyes a little.

    Your profile says you’re from NJ. I grew up in NJ and now enjoy life in NC. In the event you are ever near my neck of the woods I welcome you to stop by and visit with us. I’m more than confident your subtle and discrete opinions would change. We have yet to have anyone that’s come by say one negative thing about who we are and we do. We receive a lot of praise for the way we’ve setup our 6 acres for raising Bull Terriers. So if you’re wondering why people are paying $1600-$2200 for our puppies and getting their names on our waiting list I again extend my offer for a visit. However, please leave the pompous attitude at home; I don’t think my dogs would like it.

    If you can’t read the Pedigrees of the dogs on my website email me for the ones you want and I’ll send you a scanned copy of the 4 generation. Someone with a true interest of the pedigree would have simply asked via email. The bloodlines of our dogs stem back from Penbray, Ann-Dee’s, Lionhearts, Kilacabar, and a few others. Some of the lines are even from Mexico like our stud Lucian. Lucian was even shown at 4 shows and placed at every show. He is 2 points away from champion. Will he be finished? Maybe, maybe not. That’s not a priority of ours.
    Let me end by saying this, the rewarding feeling you get from receiving a blue ribbon from a judge who spent 2 minutes with a particular dog has no comparison to the rewarding feeling when dozens of past customers contact you months and years later explaining how great their Bull Terrier is to them and the impact they’ve made in their lives over the years. This is a reward that keeps my motivation and dedication to continue providing quality Bull Terriers to those who expect just that.

    Note – I said no derogatory remarks towards you and expect the same respect. Peace.
  20. crazybully

    crazybully Little Dog

    Tom I truly love your stance on breeding atm... It amazes me how many people are still breeding dogs in these times, there is truly an overabundance of dogs in shelters, and Bullies at that, i work with one BT down here, and it's unreal how many are coming in from the streets, shelters, drop offs, or even surrenders because the family just can't take care of them anymore.

    @ Pookie I see a lot of great looking well mannered dogs going through those rescue groups, some of them need a little more "special attention" than others, but some of them are just housepuppies looking for a new place to crash!
    Here is the one my gf and i have been working with. http://www.rcbtr.org/available-recycled-bull-terriers.html
    http://www.btca.com/btca_rescue/rescue_frame.htm Is the one that Bullful is refering to, just click on your state, and you can see what they have. I see that you're in arizona, and here is another rescue that is in Cali, http://bullterrierrescue.org/available.html It's unreal how many of these dogs are bought, and people just simply cannot handle them. :(

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