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Dogs as property, and being told what to do with them.

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by Poisoned, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. Poisoned

    Poisoned GRCH Dog

    Well the tail docking thread made me think of this.

    Where do you think the line should be drawn, if at all, on what you can do with and to your dogs? Where does the "My property, I can do what I want." cross the line with live animals?
    From cropping ears to how they are confined, how you choose to train and punish them, breeding, flipping animals (y'know, buy low sell high with no thought of the effect on the animal, like the craigslist people seem to do pretty often), puppy mills, killing your pets - you name it!

    Please keep it civil and polite, you can get your point across without being rude.
     
  2. CallSignOWL

    CallSignOWL Good Dog

    couldn't dog-fighters use that as their excuse? "its my property and if I want to see them tear each other up, I will. It dont hurt you none!"


     
  3. Poisoned

    Poisoned GRCH Dog

    Sure it could. If the GP truly viewed dogs as property and nothing more.

    Edit*
    Though if that were the case, matching dogs would only be one issue out of countless ones there could be. There are places where it's totally legal to torture dogs to death so the meat will 'taste better'.

    But that's not how it is in most parts, such as the US... so, what do you think about the question at hand?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 2, 2013
  4. OBIWAN_dza

    OBIWAN_dza Little Dog


    Sure they could but if u go on youtube there are countless numbers of videos showing people fighting beta fish and laughing and joking in the background. Its more of a moral concern, people see a dog fight and because they know the potential the dogs have, whether it be companion, working dog, or anything else we tend to attach other emotions and feelings toward it but in the case of the beta fish, its just a $10 fish that we can go buy more of later, because they are not "intelligent animals"

    as far as answering the question i could care less if u tie ur dogs toes together while he's sleeping and dip him in purple ink.....will i agree with it? Probably not, but it doesnt affect me any, and nothing i say will stop u from doing it, if its something u really want to do anyway
     
  5. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    the UK has banned dogs wearing clothing on the reason of
    "it degrades the dog"
    o.0
     
  6. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

    Interesting question on many levels Poisoned LOL

    Dogs ARE property and as such, folks have property rights and freedoms.

    I think where issues come about is with torture, abuse and neglect. And those terms are in the eye of the beholder and thus the debate.

    Some would say it is cruel and unusual to keep dogs tethered on chain spots. In some cases it can be. One example in my own neighborhood is of a dog (not a pit bull) that is on a chain 24x7. EVEN THAT in and of itself might not be an issue in light of the fact that dogs are property ... except ... the dog has grown around it's collar resulting in a festering open and weeping wound that required intervention.

    Cropping and docking ... there are accepted medical procedures with high rates of success for those procedures and then there are WAAAY out of bounds methods to attempt to achieve those results which often subject the animal to undue pain, suffering and a higher rate or incident of complications. It's the owner's choice of which route they want to go with their property but undoubtedly there is a humane and an inhumane way of going about it.

    Dog matching ... maybe years ago the matching of dogs really was no worse than hunting, dog racing or rodeo. While it's difficult for those of us who keep dogs as companion and pets to consider dog fighting as anything but cruel, to those who enjoyed it, it was simply another form of animal sport. Within the sport, there were standards, even of what was considered cruel or unsportsmanlike. Is setting Pit Bulls on pigs and hogs less than humane when the pig is not a willing participant? Pig hunting and baiting, which is legal in most of the United States is finding favor in some quarters with owners of Pit Bulls, and that sport would have been considered cruel and pointless in the early 1900's to Pit Bull breeders who strove to produce animals which would fight willingly against equally willing opponents of equal weight and conditioning.

    Maybe it's beyond the scope of this debate to determine and resolve ethical questions. Regardless, dogs are property and of that we should all be able to agree.
     
  7. Poisoned

    Poisoned GRCH Dog

    I'm with Joe, on saying there should be a line drawn, property or not, on real abuse. Torturing, starving, not giving treatment - say, with a dog who has broken legs, or large open wounds that will cause severe pain, and even a slow death. Even if that treatment is to euthanize the dog.

    Purposefully injuring - like a man I knew who used brick to break his dogs and puppies legs, so they could not escape the yard.. I think there is and should be a rational line drawn. That is what makes us human, is having empathy and care for other living creatures. Even if they don't 'belong' to us. They feel, they have a heartbeat and mind.. the truck parked outside doesn't. That is was separates living owned critters from other property to me.

    But we have laws - LAWS, against dying your dogs coat? I remember reading about a woman who got in trouble for dying her dog with all-natural color, beet juice I believe. Laws against tying a dog up, no matter how comfortable the dog is or how well cared for. That is way overboard and borderline - shit, they jumped the border long ago - just CRAZY.

    There are a lot of things to consider when it comes to this question, and debate.
     
  8. xchairity_casex

    xchairity_casex Good Dog

    i agree-laws on dyeing your dogs hair with natural dye???? i know my dogs LOVED IT when i dyed them for halloween because more people appraoched them to pet them that way!

    as far as refusing treatment-i think thats a bit of a tough one, i refused treatment for my cat with hyperthyroid issues.
    the reason is because, the treatment sounds worse then the problem.
    right now he is stable, happy, playful and probably one of the most contented cats i know. hes thin but i never let him go hungry.
    thad i given him the treatment
    it causes lethargy, depression, nuasea (they end up looseing weight while on the meds) and if the cat has underlieing kidney problems the meds make it worse and often times the cat dies from them sooner then it wouldh ave without the treatment.

    i choose to not treat him for the hyperthyroid issue, youd never be able to tell anything were wrong with him except for hes on the thin side-but ive gotten him to maintain weight for almost a year now! and hes happy, everynight he goes off running thru the house playing and having a blast.
    i couldnt imagine him being depressed and nuaseous all the time. it would break my heart. from my research and what my vet told me, pretty much all cats become depressed on the hyperthyroid meds. if things get too bad ill take him back in, but for now hes contented and happy.
     
  9. Poisoned

    Poisoned GRCH Dog

    Well, that's why I gave the examples. I don't think you should be forced to make your dog go through cancer treatment or anything else like that. I meant injuries and things that cause real distress.

    Here is the first link that popped up, no the one I remember though, so apparently a different one..
    Florida woman fined for dyeing dogs feet pink - National Dogs | Examiner.com

    Humans are a queer creature indeed.
     
  10. MJJean

    MJJean GRCH Dog

    Torture and cruelty and neglect are for sure things that should be illegal. Basically, if a dog is confined so it is not a danger to itself or other animals/people, if it has received vet care as needed and is fed and watered and provided shelter then the law and everyone else should stay out f it.

    A grey area there is the vet care. Using the previously mentioned cat as an example, the cat got vet care, further treatment was declined by the owner on the basis that the cat was not suffering in it's current condition and could reasonably be caused suffering from further treatment side effects. An informed decision was made and the animal was taken care of. No one's business but the owners. Much different than someone who doesn't take a sick or injured animal to the vet in the first place.
     
  11. catchrcall

    catchrcall Good Dog Staff Member

    My basic opinion is that the government needs to stay the hell off my dog yard. We've got laws about how many intact females we can have here in good ol Texas and it just keeps on getting worse. Every time the legislature gets together there's another new law trying to be introduced. Last time one of them would have required the owner of an intact male to carry two hundred fifty thousand dollars liability insurance. Also minimum kennel size (without regard to breed), anti tethering and on and on. It's insane.

    Dogs need to be treated like property, and fall under the same rights as any other property to include illegal search and seizure. Animal control officers are usually ignorant as all hell and they just run wild doing what they please. Animals are protected from cruelty by law ( which is a good thing) but the owners rights as a human need to come first.

    As far as cropping and docking, I have a hard time getting cruelty from that. At least when it's done properly. If I lop off my adult dogs tail with a hatchet then yes, that's cruel. Done by a vet or by a knowledgeable owner when they're young, no problem. There's people that will pinch off a pups tail as soon as it comes out and then let momma dog take care of it and you'd never know it wasn't done by a pro.
     
  12. pampam22

    pampam22 Good Dog

    What about tattooing pets? Who considers that to be "across the line"? Not as ID markers but as in cosmetic tattooing? I have seen tons of pictures of animals loaded with tattoos while searching dog tattoos. I think it is horrible. I even saw animals with there ears pierced! WTF is wrong with people!?
     
  13. TannerG

    TannerG Boss Member

    damn couldnt of said it better
     
  14. Ali132

    Ali132 Good Dog

    I've never seen this where it hasn't been heavily photo shopped. It would be pretty damn near impossible to tattoo a dog/cat awake as they would not be still let alone be still for hours.
    If they are PTS then they aren't feeling it and the I class it under the same as ear cropping. The dog might be in slight pain after and it might be for looks but that's up to the owner.

    As for piercings its illegal and stupid as they can easily get caught/ripped again not something that is actually generally done and is often photo shopped. Any that I have seen done the owners were charged.
     
  15. MJJean

    MJJean GRCH Dog

    I think it's not my business. As was mentioned, a dog or cat won't be sitting still for a tattoo and either its faked or the dog or cat was knocked out. Having tattoos myself, I can say from personal experience it aches a bit for a couple days and that's all. Much easier to recover from than a declaw or neuter/spay. Silly, yes. Cruel, no.
    But then a lot of things are an injury risk. Dogs that hunt or participate in sports are at risk for injury, wearing a collar...heck, going outside can be an injury risk (fences, wildlife/vermin, escape and being harmed, disease, etc.). So I don't believe the owners should be charged with any crime for a tattoo or piercing.
     
  16. Poisoned

    Poisoned GRCH Dog

    Piercings I find ridiculously stupid.. I almost rip my own out several times I day and I'm aware of them.

    I've seen pigs tattooed while they're awake, they weren't very happy - I don't know how it would work for a dog, it stings, but someone light-handed with numbing cream as well? I don't think it would be anything more than a vibration. I didn't even feel most of it with a light-handed person, now, the guy who tattooed me like he was trying to chisel into granite, I felt that! And I think something like that would be cruel to do to an animal. Even with the light hand, and numbing cream, the next few days are going to hurt like it has a burn. And if there isn't a reason (such as an ID tattoo, even if it is a design of some kind, you can still use it to ID your dog) I really don't see why you'd want to do it... But, I don't see it as any different than a crop or dock if it is done as painlessly as possible. It's all for looks and what the owner likes.
     
  17. Ali132

    Ali132 Good Dog

    Not to mention farm animals get branded with either scolding hot metal or freeze branded which still hurts.
     
  18. catchrcall

    catchrcall Good Dog Staff Member

    Most of my dogs ate freeze branded. Mist of them laid there and wagged their tails while it happened.

    Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2
     
  19. JJeanae

    JJeanae Good Dog

    When I first moved out I had a purebred Pomeranian that got tattooed with that needle block thing in the flank. Poor little dude only weighed like 2 lbs when he had it done. He was in so much pain. I wouldn't have done it but tattooing him was in the contract.

    Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2
     
  20. catchrcall

    catchrcall Good Dog Staff Member

    The tattoo kits that most people use on animals work sort of like pliers. You pick out the numbers/letters you want tattooed, set them in the jaws, apply the ink, squeeze and done. It's usually done on thicker skinned animals than dogs.
     

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