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Dogmen - Past and Present

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by buddysmom, Jun 26, 2007.

  1. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Well I think I am being confused by some double-negatives :)

    I struggle with it, to be honest. I really believe that in their hearts they did not see it as wrong, I will say that much. :)
  2. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    Buddysmom: all we know from yesteryears and dogmen is what we read, the history that got us these great dogs. From what I have read and learned, back in the day dogmen treated their dogs better then how they are treated today. they bred for perfection, they culled when they had to and when they culled, it was usually a bullet that did it, quickly. If you want to blame anyone, blame HUMANS for what is being done in this day and age, not back then. Humans are ruining this breed because of their greed.

    As far as how disgusting it was to put 2 dogs in a pit, the dog could of always jumped the pit. They didn't because they loved what they did. It may be hard to digest, but that's how it was.

    For me, i respect these dogmen of yesteryear in every way, shape and form and disgusted by what it's turned into today.
  3. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    I agree with all of what you say here Michele. I just don't share your respect for the dogmen of yesteryear. I know you will accept my opinion, even if you don't agree with it. But others have completely insulted me for it (all of which was deleted). Why can't some people accept how I feel in my heart? It is a moral issue to me. I don't even ask that anyone respect how I feel. Just that they accept it .
  4. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    See if you can work this out. maybe PM the person and talk it out.:)
  5. Thanks guys! I was wondering what you would think of my newly formed opinion. It's taken a while, but I now feel comfortable w/ everything I know about the breed & it's history. I also have thought about the pre-fighting history of this breed & much of what goes into proper temperment was in place before dog-fighting ever became popular, like SE's post above. The butcher who hundreds of years ago used his dog to bait a bull prior to slaughter also had to have a dog with a very, very sound temperment. He couldn't take the chance of his dog turning on him & the bull getting loose :eek:. Otherwise, that'd be one butcher culled who couldn't pass down his butcher genes to the next generation :D.
    Seriously though, the past is the past & like SE said, only hindsight is 20/20. In moving toward the future, I think more & more people are becoming aware of animal welfare & the idea that every animal deserves a humane existence, weather it's purpose be for companionship, labor or food.
  6. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    Debo: really good posts......:)
  7. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    that right there is a damn good post!

    tat2stuff good job on your posts in here also.

    having a closed mind and selectively picking points of history to judge the breed by is the main problem with society. one match happened like this so they all must have happened like this. one dogman did this so all dogmen must have done it. they can't see past the end of their nose to see the BIG picture. most of the time i think it's on purpose they deny the good points because it doesn't fit their agenda. it's like taking a sentence out of context and twisting it to your needs and beliefs. :(
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2007
  8. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    See now I am accused of having a closed mind.

    No one is going to believe that I understand all of the facts ... as long as I do not "respect" dogmen then i will be ostracized and considered ignorant and closed minded.

    Michele: Thanks but there is really no point in trying to work it out with the person who insulted me before. I am being insulted by much more intelligent people in the meantime. My "resignation" from this forum stands. I'll miss most of you.
  9. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    Buddysmom: Boogie's post was general, not specific. There are members here who do agree with you......
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2007
  10. airwalk

    airwalk Little Dog

    While I may be able to appreciate the dog that the dogmen of history produced..and I may be able to appreciate and understand the process by which they did it..I cannot say that I 'respect' the dogmen of history.

    Dog fighting didn't just sort of happen and there was gambling, etc., that went with the fights; therefore, the fights were not "just" about the dogs and the breed lines...there was an enjoyment of the blood sport. As such I cannot "respect" that activity..I can appreciate and understand the processes.
  11. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    Yes, there was gambling etc that went into fights, but many steps were avoided to keep the riff raff away (like starting matches early in the morning...a simple way to weed out riff raff, and later allowing only a few people to attend), and it was no where near the common perception portrayed by current media. Consider this picture of Don Mayfield with his dog pit general after his first win. Pay close attention to the people in the background. Not much different than regular attendees at a horse race, or dog track. It was sport with rules (most noteably cajun rules that are easily found on the internet) and believe it or not it took a lot of determination and dedication to have a dog in the "fast lane." The people in the original were more about the dogs than you are aware, and IMO more so than anyone of us can claim.

  12. Palamino

    Palamino Little Dog

    We all have our opinions and we are entitled to those - there is neither certainty nor proof in an opinion though – if there was then it would be a fact – a fact is exactly that, verified truth that something exists, existed or occurred. Facts we can wisely argue – it is foolish to argue opinion though.

    The way I understand it is that you have stated your opinion and you want others to simply take cognisance of your opinion and that is where you want to rest your case. You neither want to debate your opinion nor have it criticized. The latter is attained with great difficulty in a public forum. :(
    I understand, respect and accept your personal opinion and stance, you are entitled to it, it is yours – I don’t have to agree with you though.:o

    See this debate through and don’t quit, you will be stronger for having done that. :)

    The history of this breed has not been a romantic one, it has been a violent and bloody one – such was the life of the gladiator dog and of the men who owned and matched him.

    There were dogs that were fought and died either in battle or as a result of such a battle, some died in the pit, some outside the pit - in some cases both dogs died. You will find factual reports of this.

    Matches were never intended nor designed to be to the death though - this was not the desired outcome sought by the honorable dogman – he wanted to ensure his dogs survival, win or lose. You will also find many factual reports on this.

    There have been dogmen who lived this past century who actively bred and matched bulldogs, who ruthlessly culled inferior flawed stock when required to do so, but who really cared for their dogs well being and who really contributed greatly to the soundness of some of the bulldog stock that lives today. Within me, I understand that and subsequently admire these people for allowing us those genes. As the custodians of these genes, what do we now do to preserve their integrity in a society where the matching of bulldogs is illegal?

    The opposite is also true - there have been those dogmen who did not deserve to own the fleas on the dogs that they owned and fought. They were trash, liars and cheats, who treated their dogs despicably and placed zero value on their survival unless it meant another paycheck.

    “This is a clear case where one shoe simply does not fit all.â€
  13. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    very good post Palamino.
  14. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    thank you michele i'm glad you can CLEARLY see that was not directed at anyone in paticular.

    now this is: buddysmom it seems you are more about stirring up an argument than just presenting your opinion. you want to make each and every post anyone puts up that doesn't agree with you "about you". this does the breed, nor the borad, nor the pit bull community in general any good. why don't you try putting yourself aside for just once and not making it personal "about you" sheesh! :rolleyes:

    oh and before anybody says anything about addressing her personally in a post.....she has done it several times in this very thread so i truly believe what is good for the goose is good for the gander here and i have done nothing wrong. if any mods feel i did please (and i ask respectfully) "clean" up everything not just my post. thanks
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2007
  15. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    and that right there folks is how you can disagree with common sense and respect for others opinions. good post.
  16. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    I think people on both ends of this debate are very passionate about what they believe in. Just keep it nice.....:)
  17. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    I didn't mean to make it "about me" and I'm sorry it's seen that way. :(

    To begin with, exactly what airwalk said ... that is all I ever wanted to say. I guess airwalk said it much better ... I agree with every word.

    It is true that opinions can not be debated, as Palomino said. That was really my point. I don't dispute the facts everyone stated. Just wanted people to realize that it is possible to look at all of these facts and form an opinion that might be different from others.

    I am sorry for any hurt feelings or whatever other ill will I may have caused. :( That was not my intention.
  18. maryellen

    maryellen Good Dog

  19. Palamino

    Palamino Little Dog

    Dog against dog combat, weight for weight, fit and conditioned, this can still be controlled when we have responsible and honorable oversight by experienced and responsible dogmen.

    Here is a quote, not mine but an opinion expressed in August of 1876 - I share it with no intention to debate: (Lack of intent does not mean lack of willingness to do so if engaged.)

    “Many people speak of cruelty and pain completely in the abstract without knowing the precise circumstances of the specific case. Some of them would think nothing of keeping a bulldog on a chain for months on end, but they complain vociferously when such a dog is exposed to the danger of being killed in combat. Anyone who has any idea about such things knows that these dogs in the full excitement of battle feel no pain, whereas, when robbed of their freedom and movement, they suffer tremendously. Their natural instincts find their greatest fulfillment in all out combat. Could anyone doubt which of the two lives a bulldog would choose?”

    The wild boar probably poses the greatest threat to the bulldog one on one today as this is uncontrolled combat where the bulldog cannot prevail as victor on his own accord - he is dependant upon man to dispose of the boar that he holds - man must do so as swiftly and as efficiently as possible to avoid injury to both himself as well as his canine fellow hunter. (Also to ensure that they both eat.) This is still practiced in the in the great forests of the Czech Republic and a number of other places that I know of - often the Dogo is used as opposed to the bulldog, especially in Argentenia - so even in this modern day and age, we still find the huntsmen of the middle ages. Bear in mind, the boars weigh 150 - 200KG - they fight with tusks, they have a high degree of intelligence, great speed and maneuverability and are always ready to fight.

    Buddysmom - this piece of history is for you:

    Bulldogs were NEVER bred to fight or to be agressive towards man - any PA dog should have been culled. (There were exceptions such as Bullyson and Zebo to name but two, but we wont go there......)

    A fight was scheduled and took place on 24 June 1874 in an old inn in Hanley, Staffordshire. (Bear in mind that at this time there were strict laws in place banning all animal fights.) Whilst the spectators were mostly coal miners, amongst them were stately gentlemen and those from better stately classes. Wait for it Buddysmom - this was a fight between a dirty white bulldog and a human dwarf named Brummy! The dwarf drank brandy throughout the fight. It is quoted from an eyewitness "the more ferocious and gruesome the fight became, the more the crowd liked it........"

    To cut a long story short, the dwarf eventually won! He was forty years old and four and a half feet tall. I have the match report and can post it. He should have lost and I believe that this contest was unfair to the dog.....my opinion only - or should that be hypothersis?
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2007
  20. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Wow Palomino ... glad I stuck around for that one! :D

    Thanks for the dwarf story especially ... holy cow! :eek: :lol:

    Yes I do know very well that the bulldog / APBT never was supposed to be human aggressive and quite the opposite, and that the old timers did an excellent job (on the whole) at keeping this true. While today it is a mess.

    One thing I will grant also about the "old days" is that there seemed to be a code of honor. For example the few that allowed HA in their lines ended up with a bad reputation because of it, correct?

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