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Dogmen - Past and Present

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by buddysmom, Jun 26, 2007.

  1. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    :lol: try broadening your reading and research sources and then come back and comment on it.
     
  2. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    P.S.

    No one needs to keep explaining the difference between how the old timers did it and say, Michael Vick. Or why they did it, or how it bettered the breed or made the breed what it is. As far as I'm concerned, save your breath. I understand all of this, and more.

    I must say it is also naive to think the old timers did it JUST to improve the breed. That was a part of it but there was more. It was beyond a sport or hobby; it was usually an all consuming passion and often a livelihood for many. There was gambling, but that wasn't the main point of it either. It was multi, multi faceted.

    I still detest dog fighting in any form. It is my right to feel this way, just as it is other people's right to feel a different way about. Just PLEASE don't try to imply that my view comes from some lack of knowledge. It doesn't.
     
  3. Galadriel

    Galadriel Good Dog

    I can't speak for anyone else, but you shouldn't assume my post was directed at you. It wasn't. I was simply giving my point of view to whoever chooses to read this thread, nothing more, nothing less.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2007
  4. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    They don't represent some of the history???! If not, why???!!! Have you read them????

    These stories are what is readily available to me. I have many other things to do with my time and money than buy and read books on a subject which I find so distasteful to begin with.

    I am politely asking you not to ridicule me again.
     
  5. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog


    I wasn't referring specifically to your post either. :) I am rather referring to many dozens of posts, PMs, etc. by people on this and other boards who feel I just need to be "educated."
     
  6. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    everybody take a deep breath......:)
     
  7. maryellen

    maryellen Good Dog

    whoever the people are that are pm'ing you per the above telling you you need to be educated are probably trying to help you understand where the breed came from and why, and to maybe dig a little deeper in to the history then what you are reading .... its a necessity to be educated when it comes to this breed.
     
  8. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    I have close to 20 years of experience with this breed, I own well over $2,000 worth of reading materials, including books, novels, pit reports, newspapers, etc. etc. etc. etc.. and continue to search out more to add to my collection. This doesn't include personal relationships and other avenues of study and research. I make the time to know everything I possibly can on these dogs.

    If you don't have the time or desire to invest in researching a subject that you find distasteful, maybe you should limit your responses to me to things you know more about.

    If these threads and this subjects are so distasteful why do you continue to post in them, and fight against something you know so little about, by your own admission above?

    and my responses to you were far from ridicule...;)
     
  9. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    I know enough to feel the way I do about it. I am far from ignorant on the subject. I could know 10 times more or 100 times more and still feel the same. WHY can't you accept that??
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2007
  10. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Again I do not claim to know even close to as much as you, but i do know quite a bit. And you should know me well enough to know if there is something I have not understood, I have asked.

    WHAT exact kind of additional info do you think I need to know? And why?
     
  11. This is how I feel about dog fighting: From what I've read about how it was originally done, the rules & regulations were a lot like the human sport of boxing. I love boxing - we just watched Cotto-Mosely this weekend & it was an awesome fight! So, I can see how the old-timers might have looked at it - it was just a sport. But I have to keep coming back to this point: humans have free will, dogs do not. Dogs have instinct & training. The fighting dogs had been bred to fight for such a long time that it became part of their instinct. But it's not natural and I don't think it is morally right to use an animal to fight for our amusement. So, while I respect the dogmen of old for creating the breed that I love today, I do not condone dog-fighting today. I won't even go so far as to say that I do not condone the dog-fighting of yesteryear, because I wasn't there & times were very different, I'm sure.
     
  12. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    I agree with one thing, my comments did not belong in that thread. It was not right, and i thank you for moving the discussion over here.

    Of course you know WAY more about the APBT than I do. Hell, i have never even owned one.

    But that does not mean I "know so little" either.

    You still did not answer my question about whether the stories in the pedigrees can be considered history? I can't imagine how they are not ... but maybe someone SO much more knowledgable can explain it to me? :D
     
  13. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Adding: ... This all goes back to your original statement that the dogs rarely died in the old time matches. All I said was, from what *I* read this seems false. If anyone else wants to jump in to help answer this question, great.
     
  14. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    yes...they can be considered history...they are a thimble full of the ocean of history that there is out there. To make an assumption based on a handful of comments from ONE book of unknown origin posted in one forum just backs up my original statement.

    So there's your answer, and I even overlooked the sarcasm in your post. ;)
     
  15. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Alright ... YOU think I'm ignorant. Couldn't really care less.

    But I do have a legitimate question: are you saying the 20 or so pedigrees that appear in the history section here all come from the same book? If so I did not know that.
     
  16. lockjaw

    lockjaw Little Dog

    to help answer the question..answer some dogs died in matches but most were retired and put up for stud..now..back in history pitbulls were DA but they were kept on chains so that not to be stolen..true the future needs to change alot of todays dogs are human agressive due to poor breeding and lack of education..so when you look at the dogmen in history..you are looking at people who bred honestly..culled ..removed human aggresive dogs..and today we have people who breed for money..breed for color..or dont know anything about the real breed..and even if you take a sorry ass excuse like mike vick..bet for every dog that has died in his hands..a thousand or more dies in the hands of peta..just remember when you look at those pics..at that time the breed was respected..and people were not scared..but back yard breeders and people who run their mouths with out a clue is the reason we are where were at..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2007
  17. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    they're from the same book as far as I can tell.
     
  18. buddysmom

    buddysmom Good Dog

    Before I'm gone I just wanted to say, nice post debo :)
     
  19. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    That was a nice point Debo, and it was very hard to be judgemental in
    hindsight. With 20/20 hindsight there are many dogmen that admittedly panicked after the Animal Welfare Act of 1976 was passed, and fully regret to this day letting their breed slip into the publics hands. Many will say frankly, as is my current opinion that 90% of the people that own the APBT (no matter how responsible you belive yourself to be) do not deserve them. I would gladly turn in my knowledge of them, and never have owned one if it could turn back the hands of time.

    Most of what I was going to say earlier has been addressed so I'll wing it. I don't want my posts to remain tunneled visioned, or seem that I am condoning illegal activities. When I refer to history of the breed I am referring to bull running, bull baiting, bear baiting, badger baiting, lion fights, bulldogs vs monkeys, dog on dog combat, ratting and whatever else the bulldogs and the bull and terrier were tested against.

    The issue that I took is the idea that the history of the American Pitbull Terrier is in someway more deplorable than what is going in today, or the current direction we are traveling. If someone takes an honest look at the current landscape (this breed facing extinction!!!) and feel that is worse than what they've been through...I'm sorry. What the men pictured (including Fat Bill prior to the more recent past) have done created a loyal, agile, and relatively health problem free companion for many of you. This is not to make a mythological statement about their motivations, but the facts speak for themselves. It seems that most agree with this, but take issue with dog fighting. I can agree with the end not justifying the means, but dog fighting is not the extent of the history of the American Pitbull Terrier. If you were fooled into believing this dig deeper.

    As for the present...Who can honestly say that they've even heard of the American Pitbull Terrier prior to the late 70's and early 80's? Very few. Who can honestly say they've heard of an APBT attack prior to that same time frame? I'd venture to say none. Currently, the witch hunt and the media blitz is on. In many areas you can't even properly exercise your dog without being accused of dogfighting so...is that better than the history? Daily thousands of ABPTs, and mixes die in shelters, or exist terribly in no kill shelters. Is this better than the history? BYBs and peddlers breed and sell unsound dogs daily...is this better than the history? Daily the media nationwide reports bogus pitbull attacks stirring up a frenzy leading towards irradicating our breed. Is that better than the history? In my opinion...If I was a bulldog I would rather take my chances in a dogfight, or against a bear, or against a lion for that matter than to be abused, neglected, and mal nourished by clowns that call themselves owners. We fancy the most abused, neglected, overpopulated, and misunderstood breed in the history of this country! Things weren't this way in the 70's and early 80's, they weren't this way at turn of the 1900's, but thanks to us (our society) they are sure screwed up now.

    We can agree to disagree on dogfighting, but an honest look at the current state of affairs will reveal that today, as a result of our stewardship the breed is in worse hands than any of the dogmen of the past (including fat bill:p) no matter what they were used for. The future and present is waaayyy worse, and that is attributed to us.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2007
  20. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Administrator

    Excellent post but I quoted this part because Buddysmom also agreed this post was good.

    Buddysmom: you also will not go as far as to say you do not condone the fighthing of yesteryear.....
     

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