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Culling in the past?

Discussion in 'American Pit Bull Terrier History' started by fearlessknight, Aug 10, 2007.

  1. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    Would just like to see what people thought about past culling and wheather you think it was actually done. Did old timers cull HA dogs,timid/shy (which could lead to fear biters) and why?

    I'll start, I belive (I have to say that because I was not around, but feel that they have left proof) that most of the good old timers did their fair share of culling and eliminated the Human aggressive dogs as well as any timid/shy dogs that would bite out of fear....
    I think this because, it seems there were more great dogs from the past, than there are today....could be because fighting is now ilegal...not sure...
    But I do hear more stories and see more about the vicious pit bull these days and the attacks that they bring, to make me belive the way I do....

    I have heard stories about some old time dog men, that would cull a dog the first time they snapped at the hand that fed them...it was said, that was never tolorated...which to me lead to be true, because you had this dog, that fight for everything he had when the time was right....but would lay around and play with children and puppies in his spare time....

    What do you think?
  2. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Staff Member Administrator

    I think back in the day, old timers were much more responsible when breeding these dogs. Yes, I'm sure they culled the one's that had undesireable traits. Nowadays, people are greedy. They breed this and that and they have no idea, most of the time, what they are doing.
  3. babyreba

    babyreba Puppy

    I'm not gonna pretend I have a lot of insight into what the practices "old time" dog men really were . . . however, the interviews I've read and the stuff that I've come across over the years has led me to believe that (unlike folks today) dogmen understood that their dogs were dogs and didn't expect them to act like mythical creatures that had no issues.

    I've read interviews with Floyd Boudreaux in which he discussed some dogs that bit or tried to bite that were owned by friends of his (dogmen) and how he personally wouldn't tolerate that on his yard but that some folks would.

    For example, he's told stories about Bullyson being a manbiter, and you know that Bullyson wasn't put down for that.

    Chinaman allegedly bit out of excitement.

    People have said that Zebo was a manbiter.

    I think the big difference now vs. then is that many people are breeding dogs that are biters intentionally, whereas before that was not a sought-after trait. Plus, people these days won't think twice about breeding shy or fearful or timid animals--a shy, fearful, timid animal more than likely would have been considered a cur back in the day and put down. And really, I think that fearful animals even today probably ought to be put down rather than put into homes--in my experience it's the weak-nerved and fearful dogs that end up with biting problems at some point in their lives.

    Well, at least when it comes to pit bulls. I dunno about other breeds, in which some level of shyness may be considered acceptable.
  4. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    Good point!
  5. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    Anybody have thoughts of their own. they would like to share?
  6. LuvinBullies

    LuvinBullies Puppy

    Culling is such an unpleasant topic...no one wants to think of doing away with a pup- and we know homes cannot be found for all...but my honest opinion is that culling must have been necessary to produce such level-headed APBTs.

    If I had to choose between 1) a judicious culling program or 2) a BYB who just sold everything that was whelped, well I'd have to choose number 1. Culling protects the breed as a whole.

    And culling is certainly not solely an APBT attribute. Think about all the Retrievers and such through the decades who've had specific jobs to do- I am quite sure those animals were fine-tuned via culling.
    Horses, same thing. Not the most pleasant thing to think about...but it's certainly a reality.

    CAROLINA Puppy

    great thread and good points made
  8. bahamutt99

    bahamutt99 Stealth ninja

    I would like to believe that most back then culled manbiters, but the truth is, I have no idea! I think in cases of dogs like Zebo and Chinaman, the biting was overlooked in favor of the dog's outstanding performance qualities. I have a feeling -- and I may be totally wrong here -- that it was less taboo to keep a manbiter back then because these dogs weren't generally in your urban/suburban homes. They were largely handled by experienced people who kept their dogs carefully confined. (Undoubtedly there were exceptions.) But still, I think the overall sound temperament of these dogs shows that many biters were culled.

    I dunno. Just kicking around thoughts.
  9. Suki

    Suki Little Dog

    i think you ^ are correct in many ways~ if a dog was a good producer then the biting may have been "overlooked". i do feel most dog men/women, of days ago, did cull, and i think the "sport" as some would deem it, was done with waaay more pride and less greed, hence less HA dogs existed. imo, the codes and rules were more stringent and adhered to, back then. all the 'planning' the conditioning, the keeps...the codes the rules the ethics.... ("unlike folks today",) they are no longer ....
    the mentality is entirely different. it's no longer about preserving or bettering the breed. so, imo, less culling exists.
    so yeah, i do believe it was done, and i also believe, due to the the history of this breed, it was a necessity.
  10. Palamino

    Palamino Little Dog

    Bullyson was a serious dog that even Maurice Carver was very cautious of. It was his outstanding fighting ability and his value as a sire though
    that allowed him to survive his indiscretions towards men. Zebo was the same - he bit a child badly in the face - whilst others would have been culled, he was an Ace and he was sold to be fought again and bred from.

    The names of these two dogs can be found in many pedigrees today.

    My research shows that dogmen of the past in general culled often to firstly protect their bloodlines from getting out and also to ensure that only the best were bred from. Did they succeed..........?

    Culling takes place where ever there are performance bred dogs, be it pitbulls, huskies, alaskans, greyhounds - where money is an issue, there is no room for passengers. Not only are unwanted puppies culled, culling also takes place as unwanted traits are identified as the dog gets older. Once a performance bred dog has served the purpose for which it is bred, sadly, many are culled then.

    The show dog world has its fair share of ruthless cullers as well, even in this day and age.

    The reality is that it is still out there and still being practised.
  11. Michele

    Michele Chi Super Dog Staff Member Administrator

    I agree. You wouldn't believe what they do with greyhounds after they retire:(
  12. screamin'eagle

    screamin'eagle Good Dog

    Good post. I agree with most. Culling is not only common, but necessary. Many start the first couple days with weaker pups (but you can fill in that blank with nearly any animal that humans breed for a purpose) and continues through out the animals lifetime. Culling does not necessarily mean killing, but removing from the gene pool. If I fix a dog so he doesn't reproduce he is in effect culled. Many great breederes were able to place these less desireable dogs as pets, and many great breeders also eliminate these dogs entirely.

    In the world of performacne dogs, specifically the major job for the APBT for hundreds of years pre-1976 culling practices by responsible breeders have produced the agile, versatile, and loyal pet that we all love today.
  13. Alyssa

    Alyssa Puppy

    I believe in culling, yes. And both as in euth'ing as well as sterilizing. I know for a fact it was common in the past (that just was a way of life back then - no one would have ever thought it would ever cause any fuss like it would now-a-days), and I also know that some breeders cull using both methods even today, though that is much less common I'm sure.

    Just my 2 cents.
  14. lockjaw

    lockjaw Little Dog

    :)very ,very good answer..
  15. fearlessknight

    fearlessknight Good Dog

    I agree for the most part with this right here, I too, believe it was done and done right for the most part back then, but not anymore. There is not enough culling going on anymore and WAY TOO much irresponsible (or should I say money grubbing a$$holes) breeding and breeders these days!
  16. GHOST

    GHOST Puppy

    there are a few dogs in the game that was tolerated just because of what they did inside the box,,, these man biters everyone calls them (when there are so many different reason to why they bite) are still around and under the wrong hand they end up in the news,, but i've owned alot of dogs in the last 20+ and only been bit once when i stepped in between my best 2 females,, and got bit on accident,,'

    now for cullin,,, it happens everyday at the local pound and whats the difference if someone cleans up there own mess,, instead of advertising they have 2 many or some that just not up to par,,, i remember back in the day we used to have what we called a shed,, lol,,, nowdays its junk but my dad used to cull dogs behind the ol shed and never blink,,, i remember castrating hogs,,,lol,, and ringin there nose and you never see it anymore,,,,but cullin is a necessary process to contol shear numbers and any not up to ones breeding standard,,,
  17. Alyssa

    Alyssa Puppy

    I used to castrate sheep and hogs, and I still see it done on farms today - that hasn't gone away. The general public has just sanitized themselves from realizing that is how life IS in the real world away from the processed manufactured illusion that urban living has created for them.

    And same for hand-culling - that STILL happens. Just it's glossed over or ignored or in urban areas ... usually made out to be some ancient practice that only primitive folks used to do. Shoot, if you have one of your livestock "go funny" and either aren't willing to get a vet out to it, or the vet says nothing can be done ... many of them will just handle it themselves. Bullets and other means are still commonly used on farms, and it's accepted as well.

    Now those corporate farms, they beat to a different drum all together.
  18. maryellen

    maryellen Good Dog

    culling is a necessity... a BIG necessity
  19. Culling has been done since the beginning of time. Nature culls the weakest very effectively.
    If the right person hears about you culling your own animals, you will go to jail.
    Reason: The system can't get paid to do it, if you do it. It's all about money.

    I hate the way society has became. It's full of people who want to tend to your business and not theirs. Their #1 desire in life is to cause problems fer other folks.

    Without culling there would not be any pure bred animals, except those God created.

  20. tat2stuff

    tat2stuff Good Dog

    culling(natural) is how things evolve and become stronger and better. "Survival of the fittest", " Only the strong survive". It happens in nature every second or every day, mother bird push the weak from the nest, weak or sickly animals starve to death, only the biggest and strongest males get to mate, etc.. This allows only the strong and best of the species to produce offspring. Society today is so far removed from nature and how things are REALLY supposed to work in the world, it's becoming sickening. We even practice human culling to an extent with death penalties. A more active human culling program would probably be a huge benefit to society and the world in general...

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