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Breeding out DA

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by Beki, Jun 4, 2016.

  1. Beki

    Beki Good Dog Premium Member

    Hey y'all! Long time no chat!
    I do have a question for some of those that may be in the "know"
    I was just recently told by someone that has oodoes of friends in the breed that claims breeders are now taking into consideration DA and trying to breed it "out. "
    Care to shed some light?
    Thanks in advance for any feedback.
  2. NobodyHere

    NobodyHere Guest

    Yeh and which breeders are these? There are a comparatively VERY small handful of people who hunt their dogs and take it into some consideration. But most people actively claiming and advertising that they're "breeding out DA" are back yard breeders catering to the overly inflated furmom pet market and have ZERO business doing so.
    AGK and smalldog like this.
  3. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    I think one has to speak of "dog aggression" in context.
    Most terriers are dog aggressive. Many working breeds are.

    I know many good working APBTs and ASTs that are "dog aggressive" but are also very confident and can be taught to focus and be worked at the highest level around other dogs. You sure would not want to take them to a dog park though. In fact, my bravest dogs -- forced to defend themselves when called upon -- are the hardest ones to shut down once engaged. Are they "dog aggressive"? Sure, but not rashly so and not instantly aggressive around anything with hair. Dog aggression can often mask insecurity -- being more of a threat display. Yeah, that's dog aggression too, but I don't want a bunch of that around either.
    Dog aggression for the sake of dog aggression really doesn't mean much. Unless accompanied by confidence, it's fairly useless. Dog aggression does not equal gameness or ability!

    I think sometimes those that say they are breeding out dog aggression think they are saying they are breeding out dogs that want to fight. Not necessarily. As mentioned, saying that is just another catch phrase. You can have dogs that don't do much in the way of showing "dog aggression", but will still fight very well when called upon.
    Capt. Roxy and smalldog like this.
  4. NobodyHere

    NobodyHere Guest

    Absolutely. And that isn't what APBTs are about at all, or rather, shouldn't be.

    Completely agree. See, and you thought it wasn't possible. ;)

    AND therein lies the problem. This is exactly what most people claiming to be "breeding out DA" and selling these dogs to the public are saying. They're all but marketing their dogs as "Labradors in 'Pit Bull' suits."
    Sagebrush likes this.
  5. smalldog

    smalldog Little Dog

    That sounds like someone is blowing smoke. Pop over to game dog forum ask that same question.
    Capt. Roxy likes this.
  6. _unoriginal

    _unoriginal Cow Dog

    If you breed out a well-known, mostly-accepted behavioral trait of the dogs, wouldn't you essentially create a new breed? This goes for any breed with a specific trait or set of traits that are altered over time through generations of selective breeding.

    Another comment: If someone is breeding for dog tolerant/friendly/social/etc. dogs, are they also paying particularly close attention to prey drive or does that go out the window as well? What about health and health testing? With an acceptable human-interacting temperament? Plus the structure that's necessary to carry on the physical requirements on the APBT. Put all of it into a single basket and how many dogs do you really end up with that are acceptable into this kind of breeding program?

    I really don't know. Just spitballing a couple ideas I had about the topic.
    Capt. Roxy and smalldog like this.
  7. BCdogs

    BCdogs Good Dog Staff Member Super Moderator

    My thoughts are similar to uno's.

    I'm not necessarily against, say, breeding a pair that are exceptionally matched and happen to also be more dog-friendly, and expecting that to reflect on some of the pups. But I guess I just don't really get the point of actively trying to breed out something that, like it or not by some, is a big part of the breed. I would never go out and get a dog of a certain breed if I hated one of the traits so much that I'd try and remove it entirely. What's the point of being in that breed, then? There are so many breeds out there, surely another would fit your needs without having to change it into something else. Because I do think that removing DA would change the APBT into something it isn't.

    And really, is dog aggression even a big issue? I know it can be a problem in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to properly manage it, but realistically, most APBT breeders aren't just handing out puppies to whoever asks for one. Most are quite selective about where their dogs end up. And having a dog aggressive dog myself, I can say it's pretty darn easy to manage. Keep your dog on leash, be prepared for the unexpected, and pay attention to your surroundings. That's about it. I can't imagine that being such a hinderance that I would remove it entirely from my dog. He's feisty, and that translates into everything he does, not just how he feels about other dogs. I'm really not sure he'd be the same dog at all if he didn't have that mentality, and that would be a shame. It's something I love about him.
    Capt. Roxy, _unoriginal and smalldog like this.
  8. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Whew! How long can it last?
  9. catchrcall

    catchrcall Good Dog Staff Member Super Moderator

    I can tell you for a fact that it is possible to have a bulldog that doesn't fight and still have very high prey drive. I have one napping on top of his dog house right now. I know and have hunted with many more. As was said by SevenSins, this does represent a VERY small part of the population, and I would hazard a guess that they are not much like the dogs that you talk about being advertised.

    Does this create a new breed? I dunno. I guess I don't care much either. It's certainly created a dog that is very useful for my purposes. They come from pit bull ancestry, but I think the old dogmen would likely consider my dog a cull. Maybe he's not a different breed, maybe he's just a crappy pit bull.

    I can tell you exactly why we, a small population of owners, try to remove dog agression from our catch dog lines, yet still keep attributes of the pit bull. It's all about the utility. I need a strong, athletic dog, with a massive amount of heart that won't quit under any circumstances, for any reason, no matter how bad he's getting beat down. They also need to be able to take some heat, which usually a well conditioned pit bull can.
    The questions I get are usually #1 - Why don't you use an American Bulldog then? I love American Bulldogs, I'd love to have one. It's just hard to find one in the smaller size that I like. to I don't want a hundred pound catch dog. I don't want to feed it, I don't want to haul that sucker around, and I don't want to have to carry it a mile back to the pickup if it ever gets hurt bad enough it can't walk. I have one cross bred catch dog now that's 80 lbs and she's even bigger than what I like. When I do get pups out of her, we'll try with a smaller sire and keep the smaller pups from the litter. Every time I go looking for a catch dog, I start out looking for an American Bulldog and I find a pit bull I like better.

    and my favorite- Why don't you use a Dogo? They were bred for catching hogs- Puh. No thanks. There's about two maybe three people I'd buy a dogo from and they know what they have and don't let it go for cheap. Also bigger than what I want. I personally just don't trust them as much as I do a pit bull. Just watch some of the Dogo "trial" videos online and you'll see why. I want a dog that catches and stays caught. A lot of those dogs will regrip or some of them will just plain quit when the going gets rough. The last straw for me was when I had an ol sow blowing snot on my back pockets all the way to a little spindly tree I climbed because a guys "sure thing" Dogo let go when he started getting the bad end of things. I was lucky the cur dogs slowed that sow down enough that I could out run her for a few yards. I had to stand on this little branch just out of her reach while the cur dogs kept her bayed ( and the damn Dogo bayed right with them) long enough for somebody to go get their 40lb pit bull to come catch the hog. I'm not spending a thousand dollars on a pup that might not work out. Especially when I can go get a pit bull looking dog (notice I didn't say pit bull) from a pound that has just as high of a chance of working out or better yet spend maybe a couple hundred bucks and get a pup from good catch dogs or even a dog that's already catching.

    So in short, yes, it is possible to cull out dog aggression, and keep other traits that make pit bulls the great dogs they are. Whether or not it makes them something other than a pit bull is a question for pit bull purists to answer, they're the ones that care about it.

    That being said, the rule in the dog world is " Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see". If that is the new fad, or trend, in the breed then I would exercise extreme caution when trying to buy one because there is likely not much history behind that dog and you are buying somebody's hope and guesses.

    You buy the man, or woman, not just the dog. If that person is only in it to jump on the latest money making fad, they are doing it for the wrong reasons and it will show in the product you get.
    Capt. Roxy, Vicki and leavesofjoy like this.
  10. Nataliya82

    Nataliya82 Little Dog

    I wish pitbulls weren't known to be DA. One of the reasons I was hesitant to adopt my pup was because it is hard to have a DA dog, especially living in the city, with parks and tons of dogs around. We took him to the dog park since he was 3 mo old to socialize so we will see how he will come out as he matures. However I feel like people concentrate on DA specifically in pitbulls and ignore DA in other dogs. I have seen numerous VERY DA labs at a dog park, but people literally laugh it off (and labs are large dogs that can maul a smaller dog just like any other dog) saying "oh, he's cranky today". There is a large Labradoodle, 95lbs, who is very protective of his ball and pretty much bares teeth at any dog that gets near. Last time we were there, I heard screams and growling and a dog screaming. The labradoodle was full on attacking a smaller dog and making it scream, it took several people to get him away and it was a pretty ugly scene. Guess what, they still take him there! My Loki was attacked by 2 extremely DA husky mixes and the owner KNEW that they were DA cause he was holding them close and not letting them loose. My poor pup was terrified and ran for me. A guy's rescue American Bulldog (clearly not a pitbull, huge, long legs, pretty much a very typical bulldog) attacked a husky. The husky was ok, but it was a scary scene. Later on a park's FB page the husky owner wrote that she was attacked by a pitbull. What! I was there, and he wasn't a pitbull! If they were pitbulls, all hell would break loose! So yeah, I am very hesitant going to the dog park now (btw, there are tons of pitbull mixes of all ages there as it's the only pit friendly dog park in the city.)
  11. NobodyHere

    NobodyHere Guest

    Here's the thing. Not every breed is intended to be, or should be, suitable for every lifestyle. Your dog, whether an actual APBT or a bull breed mutt, does not belong at a dog park. Full stop. There are multitudes of other breeds that are suitable for things like dog parks and "doggie daycare," and a breed that was specifically selectively bred to fight other dogs (and greatly enjoy doing so!) is not among them. The reasons for that should be obvious. There is an astronomical difference between the average so-called "dog aggressive" Labrador, and a dog-aggressive APBT. Accept the breed you own for what it is and has a very realistic inherited potential to be, not what you "wish," and learn what it takes to responsibly own and manage it. Dog breeds are not simply the same core animal with interchangeable fur suits.
    pitbulldogs and Capt. Roxy like this.
  12. Nataliya82

    Nataliya82 Little Dog

    I stopped, but for a different reason- too many people with aggressive dogs, questionable dog health, etc there. I took him when he was a pup, and I think it is crucial for a young dog that age to socialize with other dogs/people. We now have a yard where he can run around, but I obviously still take him for walks around the neighborhood and around the city.
    What can you say about all these numerous people who bring their pitbulls to the dog park? A lot of the dogs are older, some are senior. The owners said never an incident. Not trying to argue, just wondering.
  13. NobodyHere

    NobodyHere Guest

    Socialization means setting a puppy up for positive experiences through selective, controlled interaction with people and situations. It doesn't mean hauling a puppy to an off-leash free-for-all. While important for other reasons, socialization of any sort also does nothing to prevent dog-aggression in breeds genetically predisposed to be dog-aggressive.

    Those owners are foolish. If I decide to play Russian roulette, I may pull the trigger and find that nothing happens, but it doesn't mean I'm not an idiot for putting the gun to my head in the first place.
    Capt. Roxy likes this.
  14. pitbulldogs

    pitbulldogs OHMUHGERD Staff Member Administrator

    I would say most aren't bringing real Pit Bulls to the dog park, they are either mutts or another bull breed. Even in today's time not many people have real APBT's and wouldn't know if one bit them in the ass. I still wouldn't take my dog if it wasn't a real APBT. The blocky head + an accident = fuel for BSL and trust me, i have heard countless stories about the blocky headed dog not even remotely starting it but is still blamed. See how calling all dogs with a blocky head a pit bull fuels BSL now? It will be documented that a pit bull attack took place and the dog wasn't even a real pit bull, it was a mutt or another bull breed. There is one Pit Bull, the American Pit Bull Terrier.
    Capt. Roxy likes this.
  15. pitbulldogs

    pitbulldogs OHMUHGERD Staff Member Administrator

    This ^
    Capt. Roxy likes this.
  16. Nataliya82

    Nataliya82 Little Dog

    I think they imply bully breeds when they say pitbull, but it's stupid when any dog with a blocky head gets called that. Real documented and papered APBT are rare these days, it seems, especially in the city since there is no real use for the work ability. Where I live there are TONS of BYBs, it's ridiculous, and all want pitbulls for a wrong reason. When it comes to APBTs its funny cause they are really medium sized dogs with ears usually left intact (from my observations), majority of the generic crowd that uses the generic term would not associate APBTs with their image of a pitbull. My Loki is a mutt with what looks to be some APBT blood and people have been shocked to hear that he is a pitbull mix. I've got "but he is not really massive" and "but he has floppy ears" (as if dogs are born without ears, LOL). I stopped taking him to the dog park because people bring their aggressive dogs there to socialize lately and because they are not pitbulls, its perfectly fine by them. Also saw a very DA American Bulldog attack a husky. The husky was ok, just scared, but the owner wrote on FB that her dog was attacked by a pitbull (ughh! I was there, it wasn't a pitbull!) My pup is only 9 mo and has never been DA, but after reading that it might come in later, I don't want to risk it.
  17. bamaman

    bamaman Big Dog

    You can never breed it out completely imo.You do however get a dog sometimes that isn't DA. If he is a good dog and u decide to breed him more than likely the DA will show up in the offspring.The difference in people who hunt and don't hunt is the ones that do hunt just don't care if the dog is DA.Its not a trait that makes or breaks what a Bulldog is capable of accomplishing.Its just not of any real importance as the deciding factor lies in if the dog can win.DA has always came with the territory .Read some history from the likes of Colby and Don .Mr Colby would place pups with non hunters and would tell them , if this pup starts acting up be sure to bring he or she back to me and ill give you another one.Of course he knew they would turn on eventually.
    _unoriginal and pitbulldogs like this.
  18. Nataliya82

    Nataliya82 Little Dog

    I don't think just being a good dog is a prerequisite to breed, the pitbull mix is so overpopulated it's a terrible idea. I'm glad they snip them on adoption, my Loki was done at 3 mo cause that's when we found him. He is a pet and will forever be one (I live in the city, no hunting or hogs here), not looking to find homes for 8-9 pitbulls. Some guy posted on here about a pitbull he rescued, then was selling it's pups on FB. Lowest of low, imho.
  19. bamaman

    bamaman Big Dog

    The breed should have never been put in the hands of the GP.They were not intended to be in pet homes .I do understand the problem with the mixes as most of you were prob not part of the problem and have good intentions by doing a rescue or adoption.Research and study still needs to be done before doing either , if not you wind up being part of the problem.Library food.
    _unoriginal and pitbulldogs like this.
  20. Nataliya82

    Nataliya82 Little Dog

    They were never "put" in pet homes, people irresponsibly started backyard breeding them, resulting in a population explosion. People who rescue and adopt are mopping up the messes that morons make. Research and study for what?? I know I'm not part of the problem, the problem is some asshole that threw away my dog when he was 3 mo old. They probably have 7 or 8 more.

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