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Bred or Trained to Fight: APBT Origins?

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by JroCc, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. JroCc

    JroCc Puppy

    The APBT was NOT created for dog on dog combat and that isn't the entire truth.

    The Molossains found their way into the fight arena during ancient Roman times. The breed was used for entertainment and fighting dogs was only one element. The dogs were bred to fight anything...humans..bears..bulls..and other dogs...The breed was also used as a wartime dog and this was another agenda for the initial breed. Once fighting and bull baiting was banned..the breed transitioned with mixing of the terrier portion into the bulldog. The IDEOLOGY of this transition was two things:
    1) To save the breed as it was going to be extinct as their was no use for it any longer
    2) The breed was to be used to hunt RATS.

    The breed was labeled Bulldog-terrier in the early 1800's. It has been documented that a Bulldog-terrier was known to catch 100 rats in 5.5 mins. This excited people with the new breed and the dog was then immediately thrown into the hunting category. Thanks to MAN..the hunting job didn't last long. It wasn't until English and Irish immigrants came to America that the
    newly improved Bulldog-terrier was thrown into the fighting ring for financial and entertainment purposes.

    It was also discovered in a very short time that the dog was much more useful then just a fighting dog. Due to the dogs non aggressive (off fight time) temperament, ability to easily be trained to do anything, and all around good nature the dogs were implemented as working and family dogs. After this the dogs breed took off in both directions...fighting and family and is that way to this day. The breed was perfect for both but was bread to be a working dog. The same reason the dogs are fought is the same reason they are family...the owners.

    To merely say the dog was created for dog on dog combat really isn't telling the entire story. The breeds ancestry does come from fighting and war but the terrier implementation to the breed was meant to be a phenomenal hunter and it was just that.

    Technically the breed was created to hunt rats....but it's ancestors were bred for war and entertainment.
     
  2. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    As I already said, their Ancestors weren't formed as pit dogs, but the breed APBT was formed as and created as a pit dog.
     
  3. JroCc

    JroCc Puppy

    As I already said and so did authors of published books and papers...the dog was not created to be a pit dog..the dog was turned into a fighter by humans even from the beginning of time. The dog didn't come out of it's mothers womb and say.."Ok..wheres the fight at" It was taught this by man...The dog was a hunter.
     
  4. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    We aren't talking about "dogs" in general, and even if we were. All dogs were bred by man to do man's bidding, whether it is a lab to retrieve, a beagle to hunt rabbits, or an APBT to engaged in combat. Man found traits they desired and honed them into different breeds to do what they needed done.

    One doesn't train an APBT to fight. It is bred that way.
     
  5. JroCc

    JroCc Puppy

    Sounds like their is an underlying fixation with dog fighting to me.

    If the APBT isn't physically taught to fight...then how do they learn this..you say from their breeding...the dog was bread to hunt..how did the fight portion come about.

    So you're saying that two new born puppies will eventually fight one day to the death even if they are not taught/encouraged/exposed to fighting by man???
     
  6. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    No fixation here, just a knowledge of the breed.

    If you feel it's a fixation on fighting, let's use a non-fighting example.

    If you have two dogs that excel at rabbit hunting, you are going to breed them, because chances are their offspring will be great rabbit hunters as well (not guaranteed, but a good chance). You wouldn't want to breed two beagles that have no rabbit hunting instinct that all, because you'd have less chance of getting what you want from them. Know there is always a chance a good hunter will come out of the pair, but probably not as good as your chances with the two that have shown they excel at it.

    Man has done this for several breeds, and how many breeds were formed. He found a trait or ability that some dogs displayed better than others, and breed those dogs, and then from their offspring, found the ones that showed that same great trait, and breed them. That's why different breeds are used for different things.

    Yes, two dogs can grown up, perfectly socialized by their owner, never exposed to fighting, and fight, and possibly even fight to the death (though I'd hope that the owner would be around and separate them as soon as possible, or at least, not have made the mistake of just trusting them alone together).
     
  7. JroCc

    JroCc Puppy

    If the APBTs origin was hunting..bread to hunt...then how did the fighting aspect get brought in. The offspring with the terrier implementation was for hunting and not fighting. These dogs are not naturally aggressive...so how do they implement this behavior?


    All dogs fight..and have the capability to fight to the death...are they bread for fighting too??
     
  8. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    They came from dogs that were used as bull baiting dogs, so, the tenacity was there. Plus terriers showed and still show very high tendency toward dog aggression, while yes, any dog or any breed can be dog aggressive. The terrier breeds seem to really be "prone" to it. When bull baiting became illegal, they started pitting the dogs against each other. This is how the APBT was created. The gamest dog was bred to the gamest dog. Now you don't always get game pups off of gamedogs, sometimes a gamedog doesn't produce worth a flip. However, Dogmen would try their best to breed the best to the best.
     
  9. JroCc

    JroCc Puppy

    Let's wrap this up here.....The APBT was not created at the time bull baiting was banned. The terrier portion wasn't even implemented at that time so therefore the APBT couldn't have been created then.

    Your knowledge of the breed is questionable at best. You are spreading information that is not completely accurate. This is both unfair and disrespectful to the breed itself, current owners, breed historians, and potential owners of the breed. Some of your points are valid but not accurate.

    If they were 100 percent accurate..I would notify:
    Eve Adamson
    Cynthia Gallagher
    Dr. Wayne Hunthausen

    And let them know their published findings are inaccurate and need to be retracted. These are only three sources of SEVERAL PUBLISHED works by
    accredited sources on History and the breed itself.

    I'm not an expert on the breed myself nor do I claim to be. But I don't state things in open forums that are not completely accurate because I think my knowledge is superior to anyone else. The breed needs all the help it can get and in my opinion your "knowledge" is not helping the solution.

    To say that this breed was bread to be a combat dog on dog is ludicrous and simply not true. That's all I'm going to say about that.
     
  10. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

    I am not claiming to be an expert by any means. However, I do find your information quite inaccurate, if you don't even know these dogs were bred to fight and aren't trained to fight.

    I don't think I am superior to anyone. I just have learned enough about the breed over the years to know that the American PIT bull terrier was bred for dog on dog combat. It's ancestors may have not started as dog fighting dogs, and not every APBT was used as a fighting dog, but that is what the APBT was bred for.

    Plus it's Bred, not bread.

    ---------- Post added at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

    Plus I think denying this breeds history causes more problems than people who acknowledge it, and it is important to understand that one day their dog just might turn on and attack another dog (not guaranteed, but very likely, socialized or not).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2010
  11. JroCc

    JroCc Puppy

    Spin it how you want to support your views...I'm not denying at all what this dog was used for in the past...But this breed is not a combat monster coming out of the womb.

    I'm an offspring myself...I was bred to be human..I wasn't taught to fight but to be educated and civilized....This is point I'm trying to make here.

    Bred vs Bread...Seriously?? Really reaching there Jean...LOL
     
  12. CoolHandJean

    CoolHandJean Krypto Super Dog

    The bred/bread thing is just a pet peeve of mine. Sorry if that offended you.

    You can't compare dogs to humans. I am sure you weren't born being able to smell slight traces of blood either, but bloodhounds were bred to hone in on that trait (a keen sense of smell), so, they are known to have one of the best noses.

    I have a few questions for you.
    1. How long have you owned APBTs?
    2. Have any been full bred or have they all been rescue dogs or have any been rescue dogs?
    3. If you've owned full bred APBTs, what bloodlines have you run?


    ---------- Post added 01-10-2010 at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-09-2010 at 11:50 PM ----------

    This discussion has been formed from a different thread.
    http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?p=554685&posted=1#post554685
     
  13. Zoe

    Zoe GRCH Dog

    First off.. define ''breed''. What you are discussing are the TYPES of dogs that went into the formation of the breed, their ANCESTORS but not the breed itself. The BREED didn't become a BREED until it hit North America. When the BREED became ''official'' as in people decided on a standard, an official name, etc... the UKC formulated RULES for matching. Obviously the fact that rules were put into place, and they inclued PIT in the official name, must indicate that matching was central to what the focus of the breed was. Look at some of the early imports. I see no mention of how many rats any of these dogs killed. I see mention of how many matches they won, lost, etc...

    These dogs are a part of the foundation of the breed...

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=80537

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=12599

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=79956

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=65472

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=12587

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=16078

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=12589

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=6424

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=12606

    ---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 PM ----------

    First off, FIGHT DRIVE, just like prey drive, pack drive, etc... is a NORMAL canine drive. With selective breeding, people have intensified particular drives according to their needs in certain breeds. Just like a border collies herding behaviour, which is a part of prey drive, has been intensified due to selective breeding, APBT's were selectively bred for low flight drive, high fight drive and high prey drive. I've handled plenty of dogs that were never encouraged or taught to fight yet under a high stimulation situation they will engage. WHY? Because it is a NORMAL dog behaviour that this breed has been selectively bred for. It's not rocket science.
     
  14. Budboy88

    Budboy88 Good Dog

    oh my god seriously??? and yes actually many of them do come out of the womb wanting to fight we have had to separate dogs from there litter mates at a few weeks old before because they were attacking litter mates

    and if what the hell does bread have to do with anything?? while were on the topic i prefer mine lightly toasted with butter and grape jelly

    ---------- Post added at 01:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 AM ----------

    im starting to think a lot of these people come on here and make up lies just to start a damn argument

    it doesnt matter how much you sugar coat it and wish it never happened you have to accept the fact that the American PIT Bull Terrier was created for one reason and one reason only PIT fighting

    ---------- Post added at 01:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 AM ----------

    and you say the breed was bred for ratting???ok then come to my house we will set up a rat pit full of rats and the release two of my male dogs and see if they go for the rats or to each other ill be willing to bet anything you want they wont ever think twice about those rats
     
  15. xgarrettxvx

    xgarrettxvx Big Dog

    hhahaha good post budboy, after i type this, i'm getting some toast and jelly. jrocc, apbt were bred for dog fighting, maybe not the dogs hundreds of years before them
     
  16. bringbackup

    bringbackup Big Dog

    I socialized the hell out of pup from 3 weeks old and beyond, exposing him to new situations, new people, and new dogs (in a controlled environment). If it isn't genetics, someone tell me why at 7 months he decided he'd try to murder my friend's GSD, who is double his body weight? They had known each other since my pup was 5 lbs, and the GSD doesn't even react to my pup's behavior nor did he instigate it. My pup was friendly and running around with the GSD, and five minutes later I had to leash him up and drag him away because he was lunging and trying to take the other dog's face off.
     
  17. xgarrettxvx

    xgarrettxvx Big Dog

    i think socialization helps for sure, my male at 16 months is pretty selective with his DA, but you can't "cure" a pit bull of DA
     
  18. bringbackup

    bringbackup Big Dog

    Yes, I do believe it helps but it is by no means a fool proof preventative. If you choose this breed with the mind set entirely of "Exposing my puppy to as many dogs as possible will keep it friendly" or "APBTs are only aggressive to other dogs because they are unsocialized", then you have got the wrong dog on the other end of your leash and you'd be better off owning a goldfish! You don't have to teach this breed anything when it comes to combat; for many it is as natural as breathing oxygen.

    The ancestors of this breed were baiters, yes, but it did not become the American PIT BULL Terrier until it entered the box.
     
  19. xgarrettxvx

    xgarrettxvx Big Dog

  20. mr.clueless

    mr.clueless Good Dog

    some people disregard genetics and nature too easily........a dog " breed " can be literally changed from one breed to another within 5 generations with selective breeding......so think how heightened certain traits within a breed can be after 50 generations of selective breeding !!

    i think coolhandjean has given a very good and accurate explannation.
     

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