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Blue on blue breedings

Discussion in 'General Dog Discussions' started by JakesMom5332, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. JakesMom5332

    JakesMom5332 Little Dog

    Hi everyone, I have a question for those who are knowledgeable about breeding and specifically about color and genetics.

    Before I start, no I have no intentions of breeding. My boy, a rescue, is neutered.

    I ask this because as a trainer of collies for many years, I also have a lot of knowledge about colors and genetics when it comes to the collie breed. One thing that I am aware of in collies is that we do not do blue to blue or blue to white breeding because of double dilutes. (Puppies that are born deaf and/or blind).

    I am just curious if this is a factor in pit bulls or the bully breeds in general.

    Any information on this would be of great interest to me.

    Thanks guys!
     
  2. Pink

    Pink GRCH Dog

    Most of my pups 6 generation ped is blue dogs. All down the ped, blues were bred to blues over and over and over! And she has no defects what so ever. Neither did her littlermates (that i know of)
     
  3. ganja

    ganja Good Dog

    well, it should be the same IMO.

    the blue color can cause some skin issues/allergies and thus, blue on blue breeding shouldn't ever be done.
    when breeding you shouldn't focus on ANY color in particular, but especially not blue or any other diluted colors such as "lilac" as BYB like to call it (red/rdns diluted).

    but unfortunately, many BYB breed ONLY for blue...

    that's just my opinion. I'm in no ways a genetic expert nor breeding expert lol
    I'm sure some others with more knowledge on genetics will give you more info...
     
  4. JakesMom5332

    JakesMom5332 Little Dog

    Thank you guys!
    I'm just wondering about this as I often seen these breedings in the pedigrees also, and have always been curious.
     
  5. ganja

    ganja Good Dog

    also some apbt come in blue, but in reality the blue color is pretty rare in the APBT ;)
    blue dogs are mostly amstaffs or ambully's.
    my boy is a bluefawn, but he's apbt all the way.
     
  6. Pink

    Pink GRCH Dog

    Dont mean to get of topic but, you got a ped on your doggy Ganja??

    And yeah most blues arent APBT. My girl is an Ambully.
     
  7. JakesMom5332

    JakesMom5332 Little Dog

    Now that is interesting. Ir may be that what appears to be a blue to blue breeding is not actually that at all. Thus the white factor or double dilute is not a factor.
     
  8. ganja

    ganja Good Dog

  9. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    I think you mean the merle gene in Collies? Different from blue (dilution) in Pit Bulls...

    Carla
     
  10. IronChef

    IronChef Big Dog

    You will lose pigment over time... Ever notice how many dogs down from generations of blue to blue breedings are often dull in the color? Or how they have become "washed out" looking?

    Is this necessarily evidence of any underlying defects? No, but many of these dogs suffer from a number of skin and immune system issues.

    The number one reason, however, as to why most serious folks question the breeding of blue APBTs is that because the color is so rare in the APBT, when not being bred for, that one has to wonder how the breeder managed to find two "real deal" blue dogs to put together...
     
  11. Pink

    Pink GRCH Dog

  12. ganja

    ganja Good Dog

    thanks hon!

    why? because he thinks I'm a cold hearted bitch when I post the ped...
    :rolleyes: :p

    but for me defence, he really hasn't the greatest ped, but he's definately a damn good dog, and from working stock, wich is exactly what I wanted :)
     
  13. JakesMom5332

    JakesMom5332 Little Dog

    Sagebrush,
    That is exactly what I'm talking about but. Because I wasn't sure if that is the same in PBs I was hesitant to use that term.

    I think you have answered my question. So we are talking about a dilution here and not a recessive or dominant gene.

    I really appreciate the information on this, I have been wondering about this for a while.
     
  14. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Blue in Pit Bulls is a simple recessive. But breeding blue to blue and blue to white is not LETHAL in Pit Bulls like breeding merle to merle is...

    What you are calling "blue" in Collies is blue MERLE I think and THAT is different from the "blue" in Pit Bulls.

    There ARE some MERLE, so-called Pits out there, but they are not considered legit. If THEY were bred together, it would also be lethal like in the merle Collies, I'm pretty sure.

    Carla
     
  15. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    Actually you are incorrect on both points Sagebrush

    1: Merle IS considered a "legit" APBT color by most registries - to include the ADBA.

    2: "Lethal whites" do not occur in dogs. This is a very common misnomer. The dogs ARE white, but rarely is the condition lethal (don't feel bad, I thought there were "lethal whites" too at one time). True "lethal white" is a condition that occurs mainly in horses, not dogs. Anyway, if a merle x merle breeding occurs (Mm x Mm), you will get the following:

    50% Normally colored merles

    25% MM double merles, who are usually white or nearly white & have defects.

    25% Non-merle. That's right non-merle!

    Hope this helps.

    Blessings to all ...
     
  16. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    Right. You don't get the kind of lethal defects in blue x blue breedings like you do in merle x merle breedings.

    My point is that I think the OP is thinking blue and merle act the same. They are not the same.

    Carla
     
  17. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    No, they are not the same at all. However blue does occur in Collies & Shelties.

    Snovali Creations - Sheltie and Collie Colors explained

    However, I have heard of merle referred to as dilute & a double merle breeding referred to as "double dilute" in the Collie crowd. I assume this is done b/c merle is a dilution gene. The difference is blue is the result of complete dilution & merle is the result of incomplete dilution. But yes, you are correct Carla, blue & merle are most certainly not the same.

    And to address the OP neither blue x blue or merle x merle breedings are advised b/c they increase chance of defects. However, a lot of $$$ minded breeders do perform these breedings b/c they want to capitalize on the blue or merle color. :(

    Blessings to all ...
     
  18. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    I guess I don't see blue x blue breedings in Pits as having the same kind of LETHAL results that you see in merle x merle. Yes, you get skin issues and maybe paler dilution, but that is only because care in selection is not done (in breeding blue Pits/Stafs). I know Staf breeders that select for dark-pigmented blues with no skin issues generation after generation and produce the same (and I am no fan of blues in the breed). The difference is is that if you breed merle x merle, lethal defects like blindness and eye abnormalities WILL happen.

    Carla
     
  19. ABK

    ABK Good Dog

    You are again correct, but still a bit off. Blue x blue does produce pigment problems & a higher incidence of a lifelong disease called CDA. Neither is lethal, although CDA does affect quality of life.

    Thus far visual defects & deafness are the only defects found to be directly associated with the merle allele. Others defects are thought to be, but have not yet been proven if the defects are a result of doubling up on the merle allele or just a result of bad breeding. Here is an article on it:

    Double Merle Dogs - The White Aussies Project, at Lethal Whites .Com

    Visual defects & deafness, like CDA, are not lethal. They they are quality of life issues. Double merle dogs - visually impared or not - can lead long & fruitful lives. There are some who are disc dogs, agility dogs & the like. Double merle is not a death sentence nor does it mean the dog is automatically blind or deaf or a vegetable. Of course heterozygous merles are much preferred, but to imply that double merle is lethal or that defects ALWAYS occur is completely incorrect.

    Blessings to all ...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2010
  20. Gatorpit

    Gatorpit Good Dog

    Wrong.

    UKC standard: http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanPitBullTerrierRevisedNovember12008



    ADBA standard:
    http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fpid=32



    ADBA Melre Color Pattern Policy:
    http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=73&pg=73


     

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