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Are we breeding to close to the line

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by hogar, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. chloesredboy2

    chloesredboy2 Good Dog

    Oh I don't dislike them.I just think of pet birds and associate them with an episode of "Hoarders" I once saw.It was disgusting,and logically I know most people who keep birds aren't like that.It just kind of grossed me out on birds for awhile.
     
  2. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    At what age would you begin your evaluation for the cull and what standards would you use in determining which dogs are culls and which dogs meet your criteria for the purpose you bred them?
     
  3. Lee D

    Lee D Good Dog

    culling puppies id f*cking retarded. christ, how the hell do you know what you have until a dog is mature? some of the best dogs ive had were the runt/weaker/smaller dogs when young, and ended up being THE dog to have outta the litter.
     
  4. hogar

    hogar Good Dog

    Not your dogs Lee D. and to be perfectly honest I do not give two shits what any of you think about the practices my family and I have used since before any of you were born. If you also read the last line I said some dogs turn on later and it is a chance you take.
    We start working with catch puppies early to see drive in them and to see who has heart I did not say gameness that is different. You will find the puppies you want to work with further before the age of 1 then you continue to work with them until you find the dogs you want. if you have not found dogs you have confidence in by 18 months you are probably breeding crap to begin with
     
  5. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    Hogar I myself am a 3rd gen breeder, I am no kid thats for sure, just asking simple questions and hoping for simple answers, no disrespect intended.
     
  6. hogar

    hogar Good Dog

    NGK
    We start working with catch puppies early to see drive in them and to see who has heart I did not say gameness that is different. You will find the puppies you want to work with further before the age of 1 then you continue to work with them until you find the dogs you want. if you have not found dogs you have confidence in by 18 months you are probably breeding crap to begin with
     
  7. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    As long as your program doesn't support culling puppies I am in agreement.
     
  8. outsider

    outsider Little Dog

    Culling:

    This does not necessarily mean killing, it simply means removing from the breeding population. Unless it is something like coat color (say choosing to cull all Merle pups) or other feature easily identified clearly the only way to cull is to judge the dog at maturity.

    Culling is often mistaken for 'killing' because most of our more advanced breeding regimes were developed for livestock that are consumed. No one is going to 'sell as a pet' a bull that didn't live up to expectations!

    As far as line-breeding. It is best considered a subtype of inbreeding.

    Inbreeding is simply breeding to genetically closely related animals. Unfortunately with many of today's purebed lines of dogs, two animals can share a common ancestor 5 or 6 generations back but thanks to the breed being founded on just a few animals it is still basically inbreeding. A great example of this is the Basenji which was formed with 6 to 8 dogs brought back from the Congo.

    Linebreeding usually refers to basically an attempt to 'clone' one individual animal. As you can't breed one dog to himself (or cow or pig or whatever) you breed it to an acceptable female and hope a daughter is produced. You then breed the father to the daughter. Such an offspring would get 75% of it's genetic material from the father. And if that dog is also a female, you can mate again with the father (87.5%) repeat (94%), repeat(97%) etc.

    But just because the final dog gets 97% of it's genetic makeup from one other dog, this doesn't mean it is only 3% different...it can be QUITE different.

    Let's invent gene Zorro. Z = mask z = no mask. It is has partial dominance so Zz = a ring over one eye, i.e half of Zorro's mask.

    The father has Zz and has an eyepatch. Through linebreeding you get a dog that gets 97% of it's genetic information from Dad, BUT it could be zz or ZZ giving a mask or maskless dog.

    Dozens or even hundreds of traits of the Father could be heterozygous.

    This is why you can't just look at a pedigree and see a bunch of great ancestors, you have to judge the individual dog before you for traits.

    Of course not all linebreeding is that intense.

    Frequently the offspring are bred to non-related animals for 2 generations and the Father is bred to the great-granddaughter, and this offspring is bred to non-related animals for 2 more generations, after which the Father is bred in again.

    Another common type of linebreeding is when you have 2 female (A, B) and one male (C)
    A and C are crossed and the resulting male AC is crossed to female B...the resulting male ABC is then bred back to female A (or in some cases the resulting ABC is crossed back to an AC female)

    there are many different patterns this weaving can follow, some of which produce results that are roughly 33% genetic material from A, B, and C...some patterns result in almost half A and half B with just a little bit from C
     
  9. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    Outsider, did you own dawnrest dogs about 5 years ago?
     
  10. rguerra

    rguerra Big Dog

    @Outsider: Great post
     
  11. outsider

    outsider Little Dog

    NGK = no sir I did not

    rguerra = thanks

    my knowledge of breeding practices and techniques comes from studying animal husbandry and plant breeding in college :)

    Sometimes it helps to understand a subject by stepping back and looking at it through a different lens. My time studying plant breeding really opened up my eyes
     
  12. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    I fully understand your way of thinking, I am pleased to discuss and debate with someone of your knowledge, thanks for adding schooled thought to the posts.
     
  13. Sagebrush

    Sagebrush Good Dog

    And the Basenji people were wise in opening the stud books in 1990 for a while; and they are currently open again to allow stock from Africa.

    Carla
     
  14. alex123

    alex123 Big Dog

    100% agree
     

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