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Are we breeding to close to the line

Discussion in 'Dog Debates' started by hogar, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    I used to have pigeons and breed pigeons, and when a pair mate they lay 2 eggs, and if left alone in a natural setting those sibling will about 99% of the time end up being mated.
    Also I have never noticed any unwanted things in the birds I had that werent my "good stock" and I just let free breed with their siblings.
    As for dogs, I think it could be a bigger issue. There is a kennel out here in PHX that is proe to inbreeding like mad, and I was warned a lot when I was looking for my pup to stay away from anything claiming to be from that kennel.
  2. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    My cousin is a 4th generation pidgeon breeder (175yrs in the family) he lts nature breed for regular birdsd but narrows down the program for the winners. The best pidgeons he owns are inbred.
  3. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    Yea thats the easiest way to get what you wnat and I never saw any problems in my birds.
    I bred rollers and frilled.
    Also had some giant homers and fantails.
    I love the olde english birds.

    My BF wont let me get any right now.. I want some arche angels they are gorgeous

    ---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

    Oh yea NGK what kind does your cousin breed?
  4. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    He breeds a family line that has been refined to the point of being closer to the dove family of the 16th century, they are homers and 1 has set a record for longest distance covered in the shortest period of time. The record was set flying from the most southern point in the USA to the most southern point in West Canada, under 12 hours, most will find this hard to beleive but im sure if you know pidgeons you can testify to their gameness in homing.

    All the best from Normans Gamedogs.
  5. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    Well pigeons are doves.. so idk what you are trying to say? Do they look more like the old style passenger pigeon typed birds?
    Oh yes I get how hard they will fly and some of the distances they cover is absolutely amazing! And that is cool he has a record like that!
    I had a really young bird who flew out when I moved him to a new spot and he went all the way back out to my old house, he was young and scraggly and it took him like two days! Lol
    I would love to get some birds when I sell this condo and buy a house, does he sell any? A friend of mine is looking to get high quality homers to start her own flock again.
    Me and her are two of the only female pigeon fanciers I have ever met.
    I know a guy who has Iraqi Rollers he brought over when he came to America, they are gorgeous birds.

    AHHHH All this talk is making me want to go to the shop and buy some!!
  6. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    This particular strain is majority white and has a downturned beak closer to that of a hawk, the males will fight in flight for seveal hours until one can no longer compete. At that point the weaker pidgeon will succumb to his injurys and perish, in most cases the stronger of the two will also perish within 2 days from his injurys. They are truly gamebirds and are not for the regular fancier.

    I do not beleive that my cousin would sell even an average bird of his strain for a reasonable price. The last sale that he made was quite substantial, (50k) for a breedable pair.

    All the best from Normans Gamedogs.
  7. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    Ive seen the hawk looking beak on a few homers, I dot think I would consider myself a "regular fancier" Ive had birds my whole life, started off with cheapo birds and ended up with very high quality expensive birds.
    I would love some! I dont think I could afford the 50k for a pair tho lol
    I will see if my friend is interested in getting some, does you cousin have a website or email I could give to her?
    She has been looking for about 6months for some good birds.
  8. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    If you pm me I can look into it for you.
  9. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    Anakin is tight bred and is one of the smartest dogs I have ever seen. If and when I do a breeding with him in the future I will so a "line" breeding and not an "inbreeding" In other words I will take him back to the same blood lines but not say anything Vader or closely related.
  10. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    I think you mean you want to family breed your dog not linebreed. Family breeding is to breed back to the same foundation or "Family" of dogs. Linebreeding is to breed a father to his daughter to create a "Line".
    Inbreeding is to breed a line into itself (Brother/ Sister) hence "inbreeding"
  11. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    Thank for clearing that up for me I had it ass backwards:lol: I just assumed linebreeding was keeping it in the same lines and inbreeding was breeding back to anything related like brother to sister....

    So linebreeding is only done between Father and Daughter?
  12. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    Yes to line breed is to take a father back to his daughter, test, cull and breed to the next daughter/grandaughter and then again breed to the Gr Grandaughter. this will sew up the fathers genetics to a point where all of the offspring should show similiar traits (as long as the father is himself family bred). Many breeders will breed the offspring back to cousin strains within the same family to loosen up those refined genetics a little and then linebreed or inbreed from there.

    Most people don't realize that a breeding program can only be planned "so far in advance", to think that you will get all of the traits you desire in a said breeding would be arogant at best. It is within the testing phase that you will be planning your future breedings. Some have started a triple cross (defined above) and realized that the traits they are looking for have showed in the second phase of the cross (which has happened a few times in my strain) when the traits have been identified and all of the testing is complete you may choose to breed back to a great uncle or aunt and start the family breeding phase earlier than anticipated. At that point you will be again looking to refine the traits of your line without crowding the genetics to the point where the positive cancels out the positive. I have used the word cross a few times and in no way should this reflect breeding outside of the family, the original female used in this program should be of a cousin strain and from the same family of dogs if you wish to refine the family. If it is your objective to create your own strain I beleive that the female should still be related loosly after 8 generations ( the foundation should be the same).

    I hope I was of some help in this explaination.
  13. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    Thanks for that info, really helpful. I have a few mentors that are really helpful when it comes to breeding, as a matter fact I just did my first APBT breeding and we have use a cross and are hoping got the best. If not we cull and try again. But everyone seems to think this will be a great breeding and will help correct a few flaws that my bitch has. I will be keeping the best female off this litter and possible a male if all goes well. I have great dog men of old and great dog women who are always here to help me ...thank goodness
  14. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    The best way to learn is from people who have already made the mistakes and learned to correct them, good luck with your future plans.
  15. CelticKarma

    CelticKarma Good Dog

    Thanks ...I have some of the best mentors in the world so I will do fine:)
  16. hogar

    hogar Good Dog

    To answer the question am I a breeder. I have not put a litter of pups on the ground in over 15 years I have not studded a dog in even longer. If I did have a litter of pups at this point in my life it would be for personal use and most of the pups would be culled. I do not think I would let any go
  17. NGK

    NGK Little Dog

    I have a question for you hogar, Why on earth would you cull puppies?

    I have never culled a healthy puppy, that would defeat the purpose of me breeding dogs.

    I raise all of my stock to the age of 2-3 years before I even consider a cull.

    I just don't get culling puppies... How on earth can you decide which to cull if you cannot look at their adult nature and evaluate their qualaties? The whole concept of breeding is to create the best adult stock you possibly can. What would be your premise for the cull,,,? Color? Size?

    Please explain this to me as I am in the dark when it comes to culling puppies.
  18. chloesredboy2

    chloesredboy2 Good Dog

    Sorry this so OT but,
    :eek: Why the hell would some dirty ass birds cost so much?

    ---------- Post added at 11:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 PM ----------

    I'm glad you asked that. It's Something I've always kind of wondered about myself.Of course I don't mean you specifically Hogar,just general curiosity.
  19. hogar

    hogar Good Dog

    I have never been involved in breeding Show dogs color and size have no determination on a working dog and by culling most of the Pups I am not referring to culling a three day old puppy. I have no intention of breeding dogs at this time but if I did decide to it would be for catch dogs for myself and I would not need more then 2 or 3 and honestly I do not trust most people so I would not be willing to let any of my dogs go and if I only need 2 maybe 3 dogs. some will need to be culled. I do not believe you need to wait till the dogs are 2 or 3 to find good catch dogs. I am not saying some will not turn on at 2 or 3 because it does happen and that is a chance you take.
  20. pookie!

    pookie! GRCH Dog

    I myself wouldn't pay that much, but serious racers would. Its just like, dog/horse racing.
    Pigeons aren't any "dirtier" than any other bird. Hell an iguana is "dirtier" than a pigeon, and they carry the same diseases. Which can be stopped by washing your hands.
    I loved my pigeons, and I even have a small Diamond Dove as a pet right now.
    I took my Roller breeding and all my other birds very serious its just like any other thing someone can be interested in. You might actually like them when you see a flock of Rollers preform or see a bird fly a couple hundred miles nonstop.
    Plus they are sweet pets some of the breeds, and are like parrots or other pet birds.

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